Mayner

On 3/15/2018 at 1:53 AM, skinner75 said:

Didn't people bash the Dart before it was launched?

CIE got a lot of criticism from the experts in the media for choosing bogie rather than articulated stock for the DART, the 1500vDC system and disrupting/closing businesses because of power surges during testing. There was also the more serious issue with the Government treating the DART as a cash cow charging CIE & IE interest on a free EU Grant that was provided to fund the electrification and German rolling stock. 

No piece of equipment is 100% reliable, while the Luas seems to have operated reasonably reliably for 14-15 years, the entire 071 fleet was withdrawn in the mid 1980s with cracked bogies, the MK3 Coaches had serious reliability problems with the plug doors and a train of MK3 coaches divided in the Cork Tunnel as a result of a defective coupling assembly, the DART had teething problems with the original automatic cab signalling system and drivers eventually given limited control over braking and acceleration.

The Luas is quite embedded in Dublins transport system with  Dublin Bus carries 139m passengers, LUAS 37.6m and DART16m.

6 hours ago, Glenderg said:

Provided motors, wheels and everything was included, count me in. Going around the houses to get wheels from A by filofax, and motors from B by carrier pigeon, and all the other stuff by smoke signal, at an unknown time and date would be a deal breaker for me. Also 21mm.

(I've clearly spent too much time on RMWeb!!!)

Too much time on RM Web Richie.

Perhaps there is a case for IRM commissioning a Baldwin as its first rtr steam loco . Would definitely outsell any kit but a bit too exotic to shift enough units to reach break even point.

Its difficult to see demand for a Baldwin reaching break even point for a traditional brass kit with whitemetal castings, but might be feasible with etched brass with lost wax castings from 3D printed masters if the buyer is prepared to pay a preminium . https://nzfinescale.com/

Rapid prototyping in combination with 3D printing would probably be the most economic/low risk (to the designer/comissioner) way of producing the model. Coastline Models seems to be achieving good results using http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/106745-coast-line-models-bits-and-pieces-covering-mostly-cambrian-areas-in-4mm/page-2 Shapeways & Imaterialise.

The cost/difficulty in sourcing stocking suitable wheels and motors from the UK is a major issue now that rtr has basically wiped out the market for loco kits.

Ultrascale who manufacture probably the best wheels in the world have an on-line shop and 9 month lead time, Markits and Gibson the two biggest manufacturers/suppliers don't have on line shops and seem to sell mainly through exhibitions and specialist societies.

John

8 hours ago, leslie10646 said:

John, Thanks for that feedback.

I have no doubt the disruption would be horrendous, but it seemed that the recent Luas building work to get across the Liffey was just as bad? 

The beauty of such a method, if practical, is that once it's down (and covered over) the trams run down the centre of the street, but without disrupting the traffic. The public just drop down an escalator and jump on a speedy public transport system.

As I said, the one in Strasbourg is terrific and now that I've sussed it, when I lead tours through there, I save my elderly clients a long walk from our hotel near the station to the Cathedral etc by hopping on a tram for a few stops.

Leslie

Cut and cover construction would probably have taken two to three times longer than building a surface section of tramway/light rail.  The big additions in terms of time and cost over surface over a surface line include civil works and earthmoving in connection with forming the tunnel and mechanical and electrical services within the tunnel. Multiple piling rigs working within the city centre forming the retaining walls and the road traffic from a massive muck shift would result in a lot more disruption than that occurred with the LUAS. 

At least with a bored tunnel like the Port Tunnel most of the work goes fairly un-noticed with traffic congestion limited to a couple of sites, a bored tunnel from the airport or M50 to the city centre would create the least disruption material can be delivered/spoil may be removed by motorway, geologically Dublin is trick not impossible.

Discouraging cars from entering the city center seems to have been part of a strategy for at least 40 years, starting with pedestrianising Grafton & Henry/Mary St in the 70s, restricting O'Connell St to  public transport, closing streets for the LUAS and the port tunnel, certainly the days of the demolishing large areas of the city center and inner city to make ways for motorways are long.

The LUAS was originally conceived as an affordable substitute for CIEs Dublin Metro, with Lines from the city centre to Tallagh, Stillorgan/Sandyford Ind Estate and Ballymun to be funded mainly by EU  money as a bribe for voting for Maastricht Treaty. 

The LUAS was originally a CIE baby, but the LUAS was spun off the the Rail Procurement Agency (CIE light rail project team) politically CIE/IE was viewed as union ridden and in-capable of delivering the project.

Being a Fianna Gael/Labour plan, the incoming Fianna Fail lead coalition got cold feet over the matter due to a lot of business opposition, the EU money went to doubling the Maynooth Line and new suburban rolling stock. The LUAS then morped into the Sandyford-Stephens Green & Tallagh Abbey St line with the construction of the city centre and Ballymun Lines postponed to minimise traffic disruption or avoid running out money as the Ballymun Re-generation and Dublin Port Tunnels were going on at the same time.

The Ballymun line morphed into a light rail  Airport Metro which incorporated the Green Line with an underground section through the City Centre from Harcourt St, the Metro was put on ice following the GFC.

Due to challenging ground conditions cut and cover is being used on a section of the City Centre link in Auckland, the disruption to city center business and transport is pretty horrendous. The primary reason for building the cross city line is to relieve congestion at the Auckland down town passenger terminal opened about 15 years ago. At the time there was little Government faith in rail and only enough land was released for a double track line into the terminal. The basic funding model for commuter rail in New Zealand like the UK is that central government funds rail infrastructure, and City and Regional Councils are responsible for funding the trains and subsidising loss making services on the domestic and commercial rates

Comparison of tunneling costs https://www.greaterauckland.org.nz/2016/10/05/the-costs-of-tunnelling

 Buying a replacement chassis on trade me may be a safer option than trying to replace the gears. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Hornby-R353-0-6-0-chassis-motor-with-LBSC-tank-loco-brown-wheels-OO-Gauge-/372247948958

The trickiest part of the re-assembly is making sure that cranks are in the right position relative to the other wheel sets (quartering) when you re-assemble the wheels on the axle with the worm gear, otherwise the loco will not run or run very badly.

If you want to give it a go special tools are available for removing wheels and gears from axles https://www.google.co.nz/search?q=model+railway+gear+puller&rlz=1C1CHBF_enNZ752NZ752&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwih-OCd_IHaAhUJvLwKHSihAlAQsAQIKQ&biw=1920&bih=974.

Loctite 601 retainer is the best option for securing a gear or a worm on a shaft or an axle, great stuff but don't let it near a bearing or it will lock the shaft solid.

John

There are reliability issues with every new and old piece of equipment, Altsom will sort out the teething problems with the longer trams otherwise they will face heavy penalties and loss of reputation

I think road traffic having priority over the trams at the crossings and the level of segregation of street running is one of the biggest draw backs of the LUAS, no such issues in Vienna where some streets with shared two way street running are as narrow as the LUAS cross city line

The more serious modellers tend to use couplings with a delayed uncoupling function. Kaydee is basically the standard for American stock (& Irish) https://kadee.com/ British finescale modellers tend to use a variety of couplings based on the old continental hook and loop coupling or inverted versions of the Triang tension lock.Spratt & Winkle B&B, Dingham not a lot to choose between them reasonably effective, reasonably priced and fiddly to assemble. I used B&B on a British shunting layout very unobtrusive & reliable

Great to see that you have got trains running Tony!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

More planning and theoretical stuff: I prepared a block plan to scale and it looks like its feasible to fit in a folded 8 plan with a 1m minimum radius in 21mm gauge with two stations and perimeter staging in the available space. The basic reason for adapting a folded 8 design is to improve the illusion of distance between stations on a single track line, by increasing the time it takes a train to clear a section and the loco of a train shunting station A does not have to enter Station B while carrying out a shunting manouvre.

I thought it would be useful to look back at what worked and did not work in the past before, developing the plan further let alone starting track laying. A U shaped N Gauge layout in an 11X11 room came closest in terms of meeting my operating requirements for a CIE secondary main line in the 60s & 70s with a small intermediate junction station open for passenger & seasonal beet traffic and a medium sized terminus open to passenger and freight traffic.

An operating sequence based on the Sligo Line with passenger, goods and mail services with the addition of a goods only branch serving a small port with an oil depot modelled off scene and seasonal beet. There was sufficient distance and visual separation between the two stations to avoid resorting to a "twice round" plan. 

My second N gauge iteration was an American looped 8 layout based on the Delaware & Hudson Railroad in the mid 1970s a Class 1 Railroad that acted as a funnel for traffic between Quebec/New England the Mid-West, Eastern & Southern States the center piece was a large yard  where trains were re-marshaled and motive power changed a very different kettle of fish from a secondary Irish main line. The layout was designed with perimiter staging with the staging yard immediately behind the main yard and a scenic section with a large steel trestle and a small town with crossing siding and a spur serving a coal fired power station. The illusion of distance was reasonable taking 3-5 minutes for a freight to work at scale speed in either direction between the main yard and staging, but also capable of Scaletric operation by finescale modellers!

In practice the main focus was marshaling and running 6-8 through freights in an operating session, as a consequence there was seldom time or the inclination to switch the local industries or stage "meets" at the crossing siding, though it was used as a refuge for locos on pusher service out of the main yard.  A Montreal-Washington express freight or a Buffalo-Newark Intermodal was much more exciting than switching a grain elevator or power station!

My current American Narrow Gauge garden railway is a much more relaxed operation a large oval around the garden with two small and one large town or yard fed by a branch from a storage yard in the garage/garden shed. Separation distance is good except between two of the yards where a loco switching a long train will occupy most of the section. While operation is mainly out and back between storage and the main yard, I am starting to explore the option of operating a trip or turn from the main yard to the two smaller turns, the main limiting factor at the moment is insufficient stock and the chore of working everything back to the garden shed at the end of a Sunday operating session. This Sundays operation session was interesting I ran a through freight behind a 2-8-2 which ran-round and round while I was mowing the lawn and other gardening. Then switched the cars into the yard & turned the loco at lunch time, ran an empty livestock special from storage to the main yard behind a small 2-8-0, picked up some empty gondolas, then worked a turn dropping off the stock cars at one town and the gondolas at a second, before running back with the caboose.

Finished gardening then ran a "caboose hop" with a small 4-6-0 to run a stock special with the stock cars.  2-8-0 then ran out collected the gondolas before marshalling all the cars in the yard into a train to be double headed with the 2-8-2 after tea. Final runs were a bit tricky as it was getting dark and both stock special and freight were too much for the locos on the 4% grade to the shed and I was not in the mood for sending out another loco in pusher service or particularly wanted to "double the hill"

How this will work with a 4mm layout I am not sure, this sort of operating model requires a lot more rolling stock than a simple continuous run layout watching trains run round and round, does the garden railway satisfy my urges for realistic operation and small scale modelling my kit/scratchbuilding urges and may not bother to operating a 21mm gauge model railway if I ever get around to building on which is what has largely happened  during the last 15 years with Keadue my Irish narrow gauge layout.

CIE bought a pair of mini-snow ploughs for the 071s following the blizzard & big snow in January 1980.

Dublin was basically cut off from the rest of the country for a week with most of the main roads blocked, though CIE managed to keep most of the main lines open.

On the day following the blizzard CIE ran a special from Cork with emergency food supplies for Dublin. The Sligo line took a week to clear mainly on account of fallen trees.

John

3 hours ago, Noel said:

They are working on solutions (see IT piece below). Hopefully one day it will all gel together.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/longer-luas-trams-withdrawn-due-to-fault-in-system-1.3429510

Far in the future I would love to be able get to Heuston from Bray by rail in 30 minutes, change platform and be in Cork by rail two hours later.  That would be 10 minutes quicker than I can do it by road at the moment point2point. 

 

Teleportation might be the solution.

If its any consolation Auckland is about 30 years behind Dublin in terms of public transport infrastructure despite having a City Transport authority with power to manage road, rail and ferry services. The city is going through the same soul searching as Dublin between a heavy and light rail connection from the CBD to the Airport, while roading projects are funded directly by central government. Recently completed heavy rail electrification and roading projects simply add to congestion as demand quickly exceeds capacity with increasing population in a rising economy.

Ho for the good old days of a stagnant economy when there was little traffic on the roads and public transport ran half empty

6 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

Once CIE took over the remnant of the GNR lines in the area in 1958, I always wondered why they didn't use Mullingar - Inny - Cavan - Clones - Monaghan as a single route, with maybe 2 or 3 through passenger trains a day. I think a GAA special did that once.

The Midland Cavan branch was very indirect compared with road for Dublin-Cavan traffic over 20 miles longer and served a sparsely populated area which probably contributed to its demise. The branch seems to have been built to feed cattle traffic from the midlands into the port of Belfast.

The GNR is likely that the GNR would have closed the Dundalk-Omagh line and branches if it had been allowed to operate road services in Northern Ireland, it already had established a direct Dublin-Cavan-Enniskillen bus service an an extensive network of bus routes in Cavan, Meath and Monaghan

There is a tale of a J15 arriving unexpectedly in Dundalk from Cavan with the CIE weedspray train at some stage after the 1958 take over, irate telephone calls & telegrams to the traffic people in Dublin. The last passenger train over the INW & Cavan branch appears to have been a circular IRRS tour by an ex GNR AEC railcar set going out over the GNR lines returning by the Midland.

The A Class on the Monaghan GAA special may have arrived from Dundalk rather than Mullingar, some of the coaches seem to have been ex-GNR including a re-gauged LNWR coach.

Cavan would be an interesting place to model beside CIE & GNR locos and stock  UTA 4-4-0 No 81 Carrickfergus Castle was on hire to the GNR and regularly worked into Cavan in the early 1950s

1 hour ago, Irishswissernie said:

I thought Cavan but couldn't get the photo to fit the track plan so I've done some more investigation. I think it is Cavan but the train is on the GNR line approaching from the Clones direction which has a curve to the left whereas the M&GWR line is straight. Because it is an exM&GWR locomotive this threw me but there would be nothing to stop CIE trains running through or perhaps shunting after the takeover of the GNR in the 1950's. I will continue to 'dig'!

 

Ernie

Its an interesting one everything in the photo looks a bit to clean and well maintained for a railway in terminal decline in the late 50s.  The track layout in the photo has more in common with the CIE rather than the GNR yard, the connecting line between two companies was laid in bullhead.

CIE continued to operate the Midland and GNR Cavan branches as two separate systems up to closure, with Cavan served by a steam hauled goods and a diesel railcar mail train from Dundalk & a C Class hauled goods from Mullingar

There are photos of GNR locos and railcars being turned on the Midland turntable & the WTT included whistle signals for working between the two yards so its not unlikely that a CIE loco would work into the northern yard to interchange traffic with the GNR.

Cavan would make an interesting model if I had the space!!

4 minutes ago, Irishswissernie said:

Looking for Cavan photos ,I came across some more of Cavan  images in my files plus some on the GNRI, now added to Flickr.  THe one below by Henry Emeleus is described as Cavan but I don't think it is. The earlier 2 have been identified.

 

Ernie

Possibly Roscrea stand of trees in background GSWR signal cabin and cattle bank sidings (long lifted) in the distance

6 hours ago, Irishswissernie said:

Yes I had already identified the Bantry views before uploading , its the 4-4-0 ( I think its D14 96) and the 0-6-0 (looks like J19 596) which need the location identified. The 4-4-0 view looks like at a fairly large station.

 

Ernie

596 appears to be arriving in Cavan, the location is fairly distinctive the train appears to be on the connecting line to the GNR yard. The Midland platform road and goods yard on the left, the diverging line on the right lead to the cattle bank, loco shed and turntable. In the 1950s Cavan was distinctly odd a CIE station with more GNR than CIE traffic. The Clones-Cavan line was still treated as a main line with a frequent by Irish standards service of through trains to Belfast, while CIE operated a daily goods from Mullingar.

Looking the other 604 with train station and Midland yard in background. "A Decade of Steam" Photo Drew Donaldson?

Interesting one JHB oil burning ex-MGWR Cattle Engine J5 0-6-0 on the passenger rather than an Ex MGWR C 4-4-0 (D6 or D7), well dressed people at the station, good to see that everything wasn't in black and white those days well dressed people at the station.

SSM produced a whitemetal IRCH open wagon kit, good for the GSR/CIE & GNR(I) versions.

Fairly simple to assemble. Alternatively the Hornby Dublo/Wrenn/Dapol 5 plan open looks close if you ignore the brake gear Provincial Wagons commissioned a run of Dapol opens in GNR livery & GNR with CIE branding

. 

Its difficult to see demand for a kit of an Irish model exceeding 100 units. The Irish market is predominantly rtr with a very small proportion of modellers prepared to assemble a kit regardless of quality or ease of assembly.

RTR is dominated by high quality Chinese commissions by Murphy Models diesel locos and coaches  and Irish Railway Models freight stock, and a number of smaller producers such as Provincial Models, Irish Freight Models and Silverfox Models who produce small quantities of rtr models using resin & 3 D printing techniques.

The 1960-2000 scene in Southern Ireland  (CIE/Irish Rail) is reasonably well covered by rtr models and kits, Northern Ireland (NIR) less so heavily dependent on kits

The big gap in the market appears to be for models of locomotives and rolling stock introduced since 2000 and architectural models both north and south.

19 hours ago, Robert Shrives said:

merry experts - 

Were there two or more batches of the 47 footers ? As the bogie to vehicle ends  distance differ in the photos above . 

thanks

Robert 

There was one batch of 47 footers 30279-30284 built for keg traffic in 1978, these wagons were used to carry containers when container traffic from Ballina to Dublin and Waterfrd Ports resumed about 10 years ago. ironically the 62' bogie log wagons in the background of the Ballina photos were originally introduced as container flats in the early 1980s and converted to carry logs after mail traffic finished in the 1990s

2 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

I read several years ago - somewhere - of somebody using 009 track to represent 3ft gauge, modelling locos and rolling stock to 3mm scale.

Did anyone hear of such efforts or have any experience of this?

Haven't seen it personally Brian McCann built a CDR exhibition  layout about 20 years ago in 3mm scale on N gauge track. Brian's modeling was/is to a high standard, think he modeled one of the villages on the CDR complete with station. The railcars were scratchbuilt in plasticard with Kato power bogies.

2 hours ago, Glenderg said:

is it just me or does the track look 21mm in these snaps? stunning work

The HO sleeper size and spacing creates an illusion of making the gauge look wider and the distance longer than it actually is which works very well where there is a single track like in the last photo.

The correct 4mm sleeper length and sleeper spacing tends to make OO gauge look like 3'6" Cape Gauge used in South Africa and my part of the World.

16 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

186 is ok, as it's displayed and in authentic appearance. I often though that with one J15 at Whitehead on display, a good location for a cosmetically restored 184 would be the museum at Downpatrick.

No. 27 - years ago, there was a proposal for a museum at Belcoo, with a short line to operate Railcar B on. Funding, unusually, was available, through EU and Peace money. This was about 1999 / 2000.  Lough Erne was to be a star attraction in a museum there, in the old (now demolished) goods shed. While funds were there, the landowners weren't all agreeable so it didn't happen.

I understand that the RPSI considered loaning 27 to Westrail for use in the West of Ireland before IE embargoed the Athenry-Claremorris Line in the early 1990s. Apparently the RPSI & Westrail came very close to a loan agreement for the loco, but the plan fell through at teh 11th hour when Westrail lost their main line connection at Tuam.

Automotive paint suppliers like Vinny Byrne's can usually supply enamel or laquer in spray can or for brush application if you have a BS or RAL code or a sample. Usually costs about $17 (not sure what you would pay in Ireland) for a 350ltr spray can of a custom colour

My local paint supplier has successfully colour matched existing models, no shame in bringing a loco or coach into a paint suppliers, they are only interested in keeping the customer happy and bringing in the money.

Transfer/decal carrier film tends to show up on a matt finish unless you use rub on decals.

A gloss or satin enamel is the best option for locos and coaches and finishing with a satin or flat laquer if you intend to apply decals or transfers.

The small GMs basically replaced locos like the J15 on the goods and D14 on passenger services with a little extra power to spare as a diesel would not stand up to the same level of abuse as a steam loco.

In an ideal world it would be nice to see 184,  186 & Lough Erne given at least a cosmetic restoration rather than stored out of sight out of mind

2 hours ago, DiveController said:

Where/when is that photo from? Sorry, N gauge isn;t my forte

Ballinamore hub of the C&L narrow gauge lines in CIE days. A very busy place when the coal trains from the Arigna mines were running.

Dave

I wasn't sure if the master for the Marks Models 201 was produced by Noel Dodd or Tony Mirolo both highly talented modelers.

Are there any photos that could be posted of Noel's Greystones layout an Irish & UK exhibition staple of the mid-late 1990s?

For those that are not familiar Greystones was a massive exhibition layout that featured a near scale length model of the station and its environment.