Mayner

Choosing between Dev and Collins and others that took opposing sides in the Civil War would have been likely to have been divisive until recently. Safer to choose executed 1916 leaders that were acceptable to both sides.

From the Anti-Treaty perspective those that signed and enforced the Anglo-Irish treaty had betrayed the Republic, while from the Pro-Treaty side considered the Irregulars as in modern terms a group of Fundamentalists a real threat to the survival of the newly established Free State.

Depending on perspective people viewed Dev and Collins either as heroes or traitors.

Naming the stations after 1916 leaders was tied up with the 50th anniversary commemoration of the Rising and to stir up patriotic feeling and improve the Fianna Fail Government's election chances in 1967 General Election

7 hours ago, Horsetan said:

HMRS are not very good at responding to enquiries about drawings they've listed, but not provided a price for.

I obtained digital copies of HMRS drawings without any significant problems, possibly contacting the society directly rather than using their on-line system.

Though some drawings may not have been scanned in the absence of a digital image.

At the time I was in search of evidence to undermine JHBs claim that no 'long' British style 4w coaches existed in Ireland and managed to track down a drawing of a WCIR 24' WCIR Railway coach from the 1870s with quite ornate panneling 

Richard Chown had a pair of the original outside framed Big Boys on his Castle Rackrent layout possibly from a British manufacturers drawing or an 'Official' drawing from a private collection. There is a Brian Monaghan color photo of a MGW Convertible sandwiched between a pair of Long Toms on the Castle Rackrent "Keats and Chapman" mill siding Model Railways magazine possible May 76 edition

There is a Metropolitan GSWR 1917 van (with end doors!) in the HMRS collection, there is no digital imaged but listed as as 17'5" ob interesting, but too short to be a Long Tom.

Possibly someone on this group may have access to one of Richard Chown's Big Boys or access to Herbert Richards collection of wagon drawings Herbert (Herbie) produced high quality drawings of a MCW built GSWR 10T Open, GSR Grain, GN (Bogie) Guinness (Transport Research Associates), CIE 12T Standard Van (H) "The Irish Model Railway Company" 1964. Apparently Herbert who was once an MRSI member (way before the time I joined in the early 70s) was an active fine scale modeler with an interest in the GSWR who apparently built a model of Tullow station.

1 hour ago, Wexford70 said:

Would love a brake van in different liveries with working lamp(s) and, who knows, even smoke from the pot belly boiler???

I ended up producing 4 different variants of the RTR 20T Brake Van in different liveries, the interior included a potbelly stove and hand brake wheel, but barely visible unless you removed the roof. 

Initial plans in 2020 was to commission a plastic injection molded model direct from China, but went down the 3D printed path as I wasn't convinced that I would sell 2-3000 required to break even. In the end sold approx. 100 over 3 years.

May re-visit the Brake Van later this year, if time become available.

SSM produce a straightforward kit for the 30T van, no soldering necessary basically fold up etched brass assembly of a Dapol Chassis.

This post was triggered by IEs recent announcement that it has signed an agreement to order 400 wagons over the next 10 years and a recent announcement that a NZ Developer Construction company is building an Inland Port in the South Island. https://www.stuff.co.nz/nz-news/360688905/explained-why-company-planning-3-billion-inland-port-development-otago

Which brings up the question of whether Irish businesses are prepared to build Inland Ports or 'a network of intermodal terminals offering logistic services nationally" as IEs Rail-Freight 2040 Strategy long widely describes them https://www.irishrail.ie/Admin/getmedia/685e9919-f012-4018-879b-06618bb536af/IE_Rail-Freight-2040-Strategy_Public_Final_20210715.pdf

Although there were private sectors proposals for a rail linked Inland Ports at Clondalkin (National Distribution Centre and near Portlaoise during the late 1990s and even e Dublin Port proposal to build an Inland Port for container storage with its own fleet of wagons none of these proposals for a rail linked Inland Port materialised. Dublin Port deciding instead to serve "Dublin Inland Port" by road through the Port Tunnel and motorway network.

Daventry International Freight terminal originally operated by Tibbett and Britten was an early example of a railfreight served Inland Port in England, locally the Port of Tauranga developed an Inland Port in Auckland (our largest city) about 30 years ago (think Waterford Port or Foynes establishing an Inland Port in Dublin) with rail-freight terminals shifting from railway owned land to private sector owned terminals usually operated by Logistics companies. Hamilton where I live a city with a population of approx 100k opened its 1st Inland Port about 25 years ago to serve Fonterra (NZ largest dairy sector operator) and as the cities railfreight terminal, more recently Kiwirail provided a private siding off the main line to serve a new Mainfreight Transport Depot on the outskirts of the City. Mainfreight is served by trip working to and from the local marshalling years. The latest development is the Ruakura Superhub https://www.ruakura.co.nz/ on the western side of the city with rail access close to a major road/motorway junction. Ruakura was mainly agricultural (ag research) until development work commenced about 10 years ago.

Due to their large scale (amount of space) and simple rail layout contemporary Inland Port is not really feasible of interesting from a modelling perspective unless you model in Z or have a hell of a lot of space,

Largely funded by the private sector sometimes with minor state sector involvement it will be interesting to see if similar rail served development take off in Ireland.

5 hours ago, BosKonay said:

Re New Zealand models are not toys but a dedicated category of their own and should not have duty charged (this is of course separate to tariffs. 

The EU 9503003000 TARIC & UK 9503.10.10 commodity code for "Reduced (scale)models, electric model railways" commodity codes do not appear in the New Zealand Customs schedule. effective 1st July 2024  https://www.customs.govt.nz/globalassets/documents/tariff-documents/wtd-2024/section-xx-july-2024.pdf

The NZ schedule has grouped model railways into the 9503.00.09 tariff category which includes both toys and scale models subject to a 5% tariff

23C . . . . . Electric trains, including tracks, signals and other accessories therefor

55A . . . . . . Model railways and accessories, other than those of Tariff item 9503.00.09 23C

While New Zealand has adapted the World Customs Organisation's HS Codes (6digit) different countries and trading blocks appear to have expanded beyond a 6 digit HS code to meet their own specific requirements.

As an independent country NZ has applied duty to both toys and models in a 9503.00.09 category which are generally 0 rated in other countries. Its possible that the 5% duty on toys and models in the 950300.09 category is a hangover from the days the NZ Government protected local industry with import tariffs, apparrently at one stage Tri-ang New Zealand factory which assembled toys and models for the local market, apparrently including an NZ version of the "Transcontinental' train set. 

1 hour ago, Mol_PMB said:

Yes, that’s the right mix for the mid 1970s. 

At the start of the 1970s grey would predominate and some wagons would still have flying snails, while by the end of the 1970s the traditional unfitted goods trains had ceased, apart from seasonal beet traffic and occasional engineers’ trains. 

If you have a mix of fitted and unfitted wagons, you might think that the fitted ones should be next to the loco so their vacuum brakes could be used, but in Irish practice they could be anywhere in the train, with the vac brakes usually not connected. Most traditional freight trains were marshalled to make shunting easier, rather than to maximise brake power. 
 

In their final years of operation fitted H Vans may have had their vacuum brakes isolated. I member checking out Mullingar scrap yard in 1982 all the fitted H Vans seen had  lettering to the effect that the vacuum brake was isolated. The vacuum brakes appear to have been isolated as the H Vans went through the Works as the lettering was neatly applied in a uniform style possibly with a stencil, which indicates that the brakes on the H Vans may have been isolated during the mid-1970s while still in use in regular traffic, so fitted and unfitted vans could be marshalled randomly in a train up to the end of loose coupled wagons in regular service.

H vans ceased to be used for bagged cement traffic following the introduction of the Pallet Cement wagons circa 1976, sundries and general goods traffic up to the changeover of the Dublin-Tralee goods service to Liner Operation in 1978. North Wall-Sligo and North Wall-Wexford were the first goods to go over to Liner operation possibly 76-77, followed by Galway and Westport, Waterford and Limerick, finally Cork and Tralee. Cross Border transfer freights continued in loose coupled operation, but using modern equipment into the 80s. 

Possibly the last long distance use of H Van's in revenue service was a Dundalk-Kilkenny empty keg special in the late 70s the vans were stored/dumped a Waterford North Wharf afterwards.

Long lines of stored H Vans often in reasonable condition was a common feature at several stations in the mid-late 70s(Templemore & Roscrea come to mind) waiting their final trip to Mullingar.

Back in the day (late 60s) Dublin City Services used to deliver the evening papers to some newsagents using its fleet of RA open platform buses. One day going home from school on a No50, I decided to continue to the next stop at 'the top of the road" rather than get off at my usual stop in Crumlin Village. The conductor gave me the job of delivering the papers to Reynolds newsagents shop in return for refunding my fare and free sweets from the shop, my first paid employment almost 60 years ago  my how time flies.

45 minutes ago, BosKonay said:

There is no duty on models globally unless NZ are a bit ‘independent 

They say there is an exception to every rule, NZ very much does its own-thing.

While New Zealand a staunch supporter of Free Trade particularly unrestricted duty free access for our food and timber exports to Europe and US, NZ imposes a 5% import duty on toys including model trains not that we have an indegenous toy manufacturingindustry to protect.

Apparently customs only levy duty on imports above $1000nz in value, I got hit a number of times when I imported high value large scale locos from the States which were bascially unobtainable on the local market.

3 hours ago, Warbonnet said:

Correct.

What this whole experience has taught me is just how much Americans do not understand tariffs and how they work. It's nothing to do with companies, it's basically a tax imposed by Governments.

 

Bread and Circuses basically Trump has sold the tariffs to the American people as something the Chinese exporters rather than the American consumer will pay.

It may all work out in the end with the tariffs used to fund Federal tax cuts so American will be better off in the end.

Interestingly the 30% tariff for the next 90 days anyway is not a lot higher that the 23% vat Irish purchasers pay on IRM models perhaps the Irish revenue introduce a 7% duty on toy trains to 'even things up' with our American friends. I found out to my cost about 1o years ago that New Zealand charges a 5% duty on toy trains when I imported a loco from the States.

I don't bother sealing or painting a baseboard before tracklaying its not really necessary unless you use a water/moisture absorbant material like MDF

I wouldn't worry about movement/weight of the scenery affecting the track wiring, the most important thing is to make sure the trackbase/baseboard is adequately supported/braced. Stripwood possibly 75x25 planed all round is probably the best option for baseboard framing for a 1st layout.

I would recommend 12mm ply B Grade (min surface defects 1 side good) as a minimum for a baseboard though I used some 9mm A Grade I had surplus from a job for this layout, it looked good was of adequate strength and free!

The ply framing on this layout was ripped using a powered table saw with the fence set to ensure the ply was ripped to a consistent width, I bought the saw when I was a jobbing builder.

All ply baseboard North Wharf layout started 2021, dense foam ground sheet used as track underlay.

Peco track laid on PVA(school glue!) loose ballast applied

Loose Ballast scattered on track, weights should then be placed on track to prevent movement until glue sets (a board with metal weights on top)

DCC wiring track bus/feeds black and red remaining wiring to Stationary Decoder used to operate Peco point motors.

I usually cover the baseboard edge with a painted hardboard fascia sometimes contoured to the profile of the scenery/landscaping.

Ground cover ash, ballast and grass is basically woodlands scenics scatter glued to a foam track underlay some on a bed of glue or dilute water/pva/washing up liquid using an eye dropper, embankments formed expanded polystyrene carved to shape with a knife

1 hour ago, Flying Snail said:

I picked up some MDF recently for a different (non-railway) project, and I found it to be very heavy when compared to plywood. You should find both in Woodies, but I'd consider going with ply over MDF for that reason. If you use timber bracing to stop it bending, something in the 6mm to 12mm range should be okay

While MDF because of its weight has good sound deadening qualities, the downside is that unless you use water resistant MDF it swells and distorts if it gets wet.

I generally use a 5-7 ply plywood preferably Birch or Scandinavian in the 12-18mm thickness for strength and rigidity, though I recently used 9mm finished ply on a plywood framed layout on a portable layout. I generally install cross members on a ply or timber framed baseboard at 600mm centers.

In the past I had MDF baseboard surface swelling when I used a PVA and water mix while loose ballasting a layout and problems with drumming and sagging when I used 6mm ply as the trackbase on a layout about 30 years ago. At the time I used to glue the loose ballasted track to cork underlay which contributed to the drumming

These days I use dense foam (camping ground sheet) underlay with ply baseboard surface/trackbase with track glued (not pinned) to the baseboard to prevent drumming.

2 hours ago, Noel said:

Where will it all end Ted? Fortunately, my collection days are just about over, I’ve enough stock now to see me through future projects and to EOL.. Not happy at potential costs for our grand children developing an interest in the hobby. They’ll get my stuff anyway, but I’d prefer they start small and learn the joy making stuff themselves. 

Looks like "Everything is Awesome" now the White House claiming that they reached a 'trade deal' with China, https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/may/11/us-china-trade-talks-geneva-intended-de-escalate-tensions-lutnick,. I guess someone on the US side realized that China banning US food exports and 'essential mineral' exports would piss off powerful interests in farming/agribusiness and within the 'defense' sector.

I guess its likely to have no long term impact apart from possibly higher prices for the 'model railway industry' , though possibly China setting up a small number of 'high tech' manufacturing plants in 'rust belt states' in a similar manner to Japanese companies setting up assembly plants in the States and the UK during the eighties after Japanese imports decimated the UK motor industry, Honda Swindon, Nissan Sunderland, electronics plants Telford.

Main issue is that US and British Outline tends to sell to an older demographic of collectors who may end up having to dispose of their collections as they go into retirement homes before reaching the deceased estate stage, so potentially a glut on the second hand market. One friend in our Garden Railway Group bought/acquired several friends collections as they got older/passed on before loosing interest in the hobby (active in model boating) then passed on his collection to former group member, one mainly model Die-Cast retailer/dealer makes no bones about specialising in deceased estates. Though according to the IRM guys their sales were to a younger demographic than Accurascale.

Like everything else as I get older I have accumulated more model railway stuff than I can handle/deal with, unless a child is from a reasonably wealthy family cost has always been a barrier to entry to the model railway hobby, but the younger members on this board demonstrate a high level of ingenuity and creativity. When I got my first 'proper' train set (Triang-Hornby) as a 12/13 year old it ran on battery power for the 1st year until I saved up enough pocket a transformer.

Like many 'older people' I am probably getting to the stage of having more models than I can comfortably manage or appreciate in my collection though I continue to buy/assemble the occasional model. 

I would not be too worried about the younger generation, model railways has always been an expensive hobby for a youngster getting started,  they will find a way into the hobby if interested, the younger members of this group demonstrate a high level of creativity and ingenuity in their modelling. I got my first proper trainset (Triang-Hornby) at 13, but quickly got involved in 'modelling' as I loved taking things apart & sometimes managed to successfully re-assemble them, largely dependent on buying second hand until 19 when I had a paying job. Railways becoming 'less interestin" from the perspective of an older generation does not seem to be a factor the same argument seems to have been going on for many years, interestingly some of the younger members of this Newsgroup are interested in modelling the steam era (& lines that closed) 60 years ago!

1 hour ago, LNERW1 said:

That's such a lovely snapshot of the early 70s- or at least I assume that's the time period we're talking! Everything down to the half-hearted hi-vis jacket worn by the wonderful gentleman presenting. 

The half-hearted hi-vis jacket takes me back to the mid 80s working for an Irish owned groundwork company on a Tesco construction site in London, possibly Wates as main contractor. At the time H&S was pretty much a top-down thing the main contractors managers wore hard hats and possibly hi-vis, safety gear (apart from boots (your own) pretty unknown for the contractors men (very few female construction workers then) till an edict went out that we had to wear high vis, it was mid winter and for several weeks I customarily wore an army surplus coat as my cloak of invisibility over my half-hearted hi vis jacket and no one form management said a word.

Anyway Bob Symes was an excellent presenter and a highly creative modeller who brought a sense of adventure to the hobby , I think he was involved in the building of diesel-electric powered Gauge 1 Class 47 a loco and possibly a diesel-hydraulic powered Class 35 or Hymek diesel. There was a series of articles on the building of the Class 47 with wonderful graphic (possibly hand drawn) illustrations in Model Railways magazine in the Mid-Late 70s, yeah those were the times!

The chassis on the GSR Bredins & early CIE built stock were different in detail. The GSR Bredins basically had a 60' version of the 57' riveted underframe used in late GSWR/early GSR stock with vertical kingposts and bracing rods with turnbuckle adjuster.

Bredin riveted underframe with Kingposts & truss rods with turnbuckle adjusters.

CIE used an all welded underframe with welded trusses. To complicate matters further CIE built the 1st batch of coaches on a 60' underframe and subsequent batches on 61'6" underframes, the final batches of CIE "Bredins" ran on Bulleid underframes on Commonwealth bogies just like the Park Royals.

CIE all welded underframe with angle iron trusses.

Simplest solution would be to use Stanier coaches in GSR or CIE livery to produce a generic "layout train" to run behind an 800 or someone with very deep pockets commissioning Accurascale to produce a mixture of ex-GSWR early GSR and Bredin stock that typically ran on a GSR or CIE steam era passenger train with few vehicles alike.

Otherwise David Jenkinson book on scratchbuilding coaches in plasticard, David seemingly seemingly vast numbers of highly detailed ex LNWR, Midland and LMS coaches for his 4 & 7mm Settle and Carlisle themed layouts during the 1970s including models of specific 10-12 coach main-line rakes. His shortlived EM Little Long Drag layout of the 1970s was basically an American style walk around layout in a British purpose built garden shed which featured several stations actual and a fictious Junction on the Settle & Carlisle line, featuring several prototypical full length trains all using scratch or kit built locos and stock. The layout didn't last long the owner realised that it was too big to maintain and upsized to a simpler O gauge layout.

Kiwirail ordered 66 DMs from Standler with a follow up order for 24 Battery Electric locos for shunting services.

https://www.kiwirail.co.nz/media/kiwirail-partners-with-stadler-for-new-low-emissions-locomotives/

I

15 hours ago, Mol_PMB said:

If the numbers on the decorated samples are correct, the selection of 17194 as one of the brown livery vans is puzzling, as it was one of the predecessors to the H vans: a batch of 200 built from 1946 on conventional (non-triangulated) chassis, with much longer brake levers and lacking the grid of bolts on the bodysides. Otherwise these earlier vans look nearly identical to the H vans. I only spotted it because I had already made plans to model this particular vehicle myself by putting a slightly-modified IRM H van body on a modified Parkside chassis. 

Although similar in appearance to the Bulleid H Vans the 200 1946 vans were quite different in construction basically an updated 10' wb version of the GSWR vans introduced in 1917 with the timber planking obscured with sheet aluminim cladding. CIE re-skinned some older vans with sheet aluminium cladding including the 1917 'standard' design, some of the older longer GSWR "Big Boy" vans & even some ex-GNR.

There is a photo of one of these vans under construction in the Inchacore 150 Book "The Works". Aluminium over planking may have been a post WW11 econmy measure, plentifull supply of aluminium (intended for aircraft production) combined with a scarcity of quality hardwood available for wagon building. GNR coaches built during the same era tended to have hardboard or "Masonite" body cladding on softwood framing which later lead to decay and scrappping.

Comparison of an IRM 'Fitted" Van and one of my 1946 Vans. Mine based on a Herbert Richards drawing of a 1946 van appears larger by the IRM model the 1917 GSWR vans appear taller than the Bulleid Vans in photo of the prototype. 

I guess its time to think about 'retiring' my collection of 21mm gauge H Vans modified from the Parkside Van kit about 30 years ago & some GSWR Vans modified from Coopercraft GWR Van kits around the same era.

42 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

Worth a reminder to perhaps our younger colleagues here, used to seeing modern goods trains which comprise a dozen identical vehicles and nothing else.

Apart from the fact that a traditional goods train of four-wheeled loose-coupled vehicles could have 34 wagons  of 32 different types, it’s worth pointing out that ALL of them had a brake van.

Running a train of older wagons either no brake van on the end is as ridiculously inaccurate as Stephenson’s Rocket hauling an ICR, or a Tara Mines train happily running round the layout with no locomotive.

Thankfully, we’ve had JM Design and Provincial Wagons to bridge this absolutely ESSENTIAL gap.

Apart from the fact that it does us all a common good to support these small manufacturers, we actually need these things for any credibility on any layout.

The challenge for a rtr or kit manufacturer is to sell enough of a particular model to make it worthwhile in a competitive price.  Thus IRMs focus on selling multi packs of almost identical wagons and earlier focus on 'modern' block train wagons like the Ballast & Cement wagons where the average customer might buy 10 or 20 rather than an individual wagon.

While JHB pointed out that the average traditional goods train could have 34 wagons, well 50-5 max on the Cork line or Midland, it was likely to have only one goods brake or possibly a second if the train reversed or divided in route. So potentially a retailer selling 1 Brake for every 10 H Vans or Opens sold, so in the Irish outline market a Brake Van would struggle to reach 2500-3000 to break even let alone a profit.

Personally I suspect a lot of buyers of RTR models(and kits for that matter) are collectors who have no real interest in running models let alone prototypical accuracy, after-all how else can you explain a person buying 12 different versions of the same locomotive, or the surge of sales on e-bay soon after a model goes on the market or sells out.

Interestingly many years ago when I had a large American outline N gauge, visiting operators quickly got bored with prototypical operation and loved to literally race trains around the layout at the end of a formal operating session, the challenge was to keep two trains (15-20 car freights) running as fast as possible continuously run layout with mixture of fairly long (15-20') single and double track sections (without stopping)

I am as guilty as anyone else I have a large collection of N and 4mm models in display cases around the house and boxes of IRM and MM models that I have never run and at this stage getting less likely to run.

1 hour ago, mphoey said:

just ordered wonder when we will see a brake van seeing as the ammount of freight wagons that have been done now

Recently I had suggestion from within Accurascale that it would be a good time to do a small repeat run of my 20T Brake Van.

On 3/5/2025 at 6:06 PM, David Holman said:

Looking at one of your earlier pictures, the loco only has three link couplings, so chances are it might also only have a mechanical hand brake, operated by a wheel in the cab, as per a steam loco.

 Presumably, when the Gs were used to operate mixed trains, a vacuum or air brake must have been fitted, along with screw link couplings. Given that there were two batches, could this have been fitted to the later ones from the start? There were other differences too, in cab windows.

G601-3 were acquired as part of an experiment to operate goods trains on the Banagher, Newmarket and Castleisland branches on which regular services ceased during the 1947 fuel crisis. G601 survives with the ITG https://www.irishtractiongroup.com/loco/g601 members who have worked on the loco should have information on the braking system. I measured up the loco at Carrick before the cab and engine housing was encased in metal cladding.

Apart from 3 link couplings, no train brake and different cab windows the arrangement of shunter's steps and running plate at the front of the loco is different between the G601 & G611 Class.

One G611 Class duty was Liffey Junction Pilot which included a weekly? Edenderry goods working and occasional goods trains on the Meath Road after Clonsilla-Navan closed to regular traffic (62 or 63) The final goods working over the southern section of the Meath Line was a Liffey Junction-Drumree Cattle Special with special permission to load to 15 wagons, nothing heavier than a G allowed because of the poor state of the track! The G ran to Kilmessan to recover a single wagon after placing the cattle wagons at Drumree.  Apparently the rails on the cattle bank sidings at Drumree were grass grown the G struggled to achieve traction and some teens from local farms helped by push the loco and laden wagons out onto the 'main line' There is an account of the story by 'Spare Link' in one of the Great Southern Preservation Society newsletters of the 80s 

Visited the Manifold Valley several times 25-30 years ago while railfanning in the Peak's. I think the loco shed was part of a Council road depot 1st time I visited Hume End, but a miniature possibly 3"½' gauge was set up at the Waterhouse end of the carpark leading back a hundred or so yards on the trackbed, being me it was late afternoon/evening & no one was around. Yes drove several times through the tunnel and last time I was over cycled from Waterhouse to Thors Cave.

Although close to the cities of Stoke and Greater Manchester the Manifold Valley is remote largely accessible by the Manifold Trail probably one of the first of Britain's rail to walking/cycling trail.

This was well before the days of the re-opening of the Cauldon Low Branch as a heritage railway, although out of use the semaphore signalling system at Leekbrook Junction and the yard and ground frame at Cauldon Low intact. 

22 hours ago, StevieB said:

I assume that the one preserved at Cultra is the GSR predecessor.

Stephen

The Cultra Van is a bit of an odd-bod an all metal body on a GSWR underframe possibly a one off once used to house (steam cleaning?) plant off rail in the Ramps area of Inchacore.

I must be beginning to get old took the photo almost 50 years ago.

One of the supreme ironies with the current situation is that American experts (Demming, Durand et-al) pioneered the concepts that allowed American businesses to offshore their manufacturing the Far East and China.

Ironically these experts were largely ignored in the US but taken seriously by the Japanese during the post World War re-build, at the time it was probably thought that the World would be safer if the Japanese (and other defeated axis powers focused their energies) on manufacturing motorbikes cars and radios. 

I was once sat in the canteen of a major Ford dealership in Dublin during the 80s and one of the managers questioned who really won the War pointing to the nearly Audi-Volkswagen and Nissan plants.

Ironically these methods were adapted by the US Navy in the 1980s rebranded as Total Quality Management or TQM. JIT was basically using subcontractors to manufacture the components for delivery to the assembly plant just in time, classically in Japanese mini vans.

Atlas is an interesting one shifting (loco) production to Italy (Rivarrosi) 70-80s, Austria (Roco) 70-80s  Kato (Japan) during the 80s and China mid 90s.  A similar lower priced Model-Power range was produced in Yugoslavia but does not appear to have survived the break up and civil war.

The N scale Con-Cor PA1 & Atlas N Scale RS3 both manufactured by Kato were  transformative in terms of detail finish and running (center motor twin bogie drive) the running of the Kato locos best described as impeccable, Atlas 90s Chinese production was even more refined in finish with extremely smooth low speed running but sounded like a tractor, their early 2000s era Chinese production was utterly transformative.

Interestingly Trump is already being portrayed as the Grinch in the US Media https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2025/04/30/trump-china-tariffs-toys/83372961007/  , my wife and her mum (staunch Democrats) from the Mid-West religiously watch the Boris Karloff version of the Grinch on Christmas Day

57 minutes ago, murphaph said:

I'm about at the limit of what I'm prepared to pay for models. I could not justify €300 a loco type prices. That's the message from these companies and it takes a brave CEO in the US these days to stand up to the current regime so kudos to the leading figures in our hobby having the bravery to do that. The industry depends on lower cost labour and a certain skillset. If China is "taken out", it would take them out of manufacturing so many other more important things that finding replacement manufacturing capacity for models & toys would be right down the bottom of the world's list of priorities. Our RTR hobby would basically be gone or be the preserve of the very wealthy and they would have to settle for a vastly reduced assortment. It's simply not possible to exclude a billion+ people from the world economy and expect things to somehow continue as before. China is not North Korea.

China has been stressing that the US market makes up about 15% of its total export market and so could potentially compensate by increasing exports to the rest of the World, China has no hang ups about subsidising exports to other countries. Interestingly imports from China make up about 16% of US imports. Imports are prodimently Hi Tech most likely assembled on automated production lines so unlikely to be an army of redundant workers to divert to 'defence'

China has been very effective of expanding its influence using soft power to finance and build infrastructure in the Global South and Pacific and has caught The United States, Australia and New Zealand off guard by successfully negoting agreements with Pacific Island Nations in what was presumed to be their 'sphere of influence" China and Japan has an advantage over Europeans due to the similarity in culture and way of doing business with Pacific Island nations. The Chinese pissed off Australia recently by conducting live firing naval exercise in the Tasman Ocean of the East Coast but more a posturing exercise than anything having already signed a 'Strategic Partnership Agreement" with the Solomon Islands which includes security and law enforcement, together with China owning some of Australia's ports.

The real cost of on-shoring clothing, engineering and toy manufacturing to Western countries would be a singificant increase in the cost of living and decline in living standards in the West, East South East, Asia and India and most likely a dramatic increase in poverty and malnutrition in the Global South. Unfortunately the United States is slipping towards totalitariansim lead by a bunch of grifters that would make teach the average African Kleptocrat a lesson or two about lining their own pockets.

Recent delivery advice from Accucraft that they are honouring the pre-sale price of $2500 for the 1:20.3 scale live steam Australian "Puffing Billy' 2-6-2T  to US Customers regardless of recent tariffs.

April 23rd, 2025 Accucraft Victorian Railway NA Class, Baldwin 2-6-2T We are pleased to inform you that the Puffing Billy is finally ready to be shipped!   Thank you for your continued interest in Accucraft products and for your patience throughout the process. The model is absolutely gorgeous, with exceptional attention to detail and finishing. Our team have done a wonderful job producing one of the finest models we've ever offered.   We are also happy to inform you that, despite the recent tariffs, we are honoring the pre-sale price until the May 2nd. Accuracraft is a US owned business with its own factories in China     More Information

Interestingly while I was staying with family in North Dakota during January the Canadian Pacific was loading a 100 Car Train with grain for China at one of the local elevators. A farmer told me that most of his grain goes to the Far East and the US Government will buy his surplus production if he cannot find a buyer on the open market, a Trade War could work out more damaging to the US than China.