Mayner

5 minutes ago, KMCE said:

Little bit of progress.  Wagon lightly sandblasted prior to a dusting of paint to get a feel for how the detail will work.  Coming up rather nicely.

The shortie (13-14')

7 hours ago, KMCE said:

Given the success of the cattle wagon, I had drawings from HMRS for the DWWR Convertible wagon, which was quite easy to translate to CAD (particuarly for a model build).  With the experience and methodology used for the cattle wagon, it was possible to develop a basic model in 3D for one of these wagons.

 

Again run through the printer we get:

 

There is a some tidying up needed on these models.  The model is supported on the build plate by an network of thin supports (see below) - this is to ensure that each layer, particulary new layers are lifted of the base film without distorting.  These supports leave very small marks that need cleaning up before the model can progress.

 

Anyway, on to building chassis for these wagons.  Should keep me busy for a while!!

Cleaning up removing un-cured resin and the supporting structure is very labour intensive and a significant cost in SLA printing. 

The business that I use for prototyping was very reluctant to take on volume production due to the risk of a slender part being knocked over during the "build" and loosing a nights production.

Both my suppliers use isopropyl for clean up, one uses a converted car painters mixing room with mechanical ventilation and intrinsically safe electrics for the clean up process.

Some models are printed vertically or at an angle to improve strength and improve finish by reducing the layering effect and the cleaning up to one face.

The wagon chassis were designed for 21mm gauge wheelsets, the brakevan steps were printed integral with the chassis to reinforce the w iron axlebox spring assembly, while we increased the thickness of the W irons on the IRCH wagon chassis. 

We learned a lot about the capabilities and limitations of the 3D printing process during the design of the Brake Van originally designed as a pattern for resin casting with a lot of individual parts, it went through several iterations before we arrived at the final design once it was established that resin casting was not a practical proposition, by contrast apart from missing some of the rivet detail we got it right first time with the IRCH open wagon.

3 hours ago, declan64 said:

And Hattons are registered for Irish VAT so that means painless deliveries (and no extra processing fees) and painless returns if you have a problem. With anyone else you're going to have to claim your VAT back from the courier who paid it if your return something. 

I'm not aware of any other UK supplier providing this (apart from Amazon which wouldn't be my first stop for railway models). Does anyone know of anyone else?

eBay purchases from the UK are a  total disaster post Brexit. Don't get me going ....

 

We have examined the options for exporting DDTP to Ireland and the UK mainly to remove the uncertainty around price for high value orders.

The main issues are that the DDTP shipping rates for small parcels are considerably higher than ordinary air parcel or international courier services and only one company operating an affordable DDTP service from NZ to the UK.

There may not be much difference in total price in ordering duty unpaid and paying the vat and associated charges on arrival as ordering an item DDTP as the charges and fees are built into the DDTP shipping rate.

From a practical point of view there is no additional labelling on a package to indicate that its sent DDTP, packages are kept separate from other mail and parcels sent in a separate DDTP mail bag from the customers premises to a internal airport and distributed from a "fulfilment center' in the country of arrival rather than being scanned by customs. 

The E-Bay Global Shipping Services and some Chinese shippers operate on the same principal, high value package arrives from the States or China with a local postmark and no customs declaration on the box.

We have successfully printed wagons chassis suitable for OO & 21mm gauge, though a rigid brass or compensated chassis with metal detail castings is likely to be a better option using S4 or EMF wheel standards. A brass chassis is likely to be freer running and more dimensionally stable than a 3D printed chassis.

The main risk in printing a chassis is part breakage as many of the SLA resins are very brittle, particularly in cold weather.

We originally considered resin casting for production version of the CIE Brake Van but settled on 3D printing as we were unable to find a business with vacuum resin casting capability as small scale manufacture has moved on to 3D printing.

We overcome the brittleness problem for wagon chassis by using a resin with ABS properties and have printed the IRCH wagon chassis in one piece complete with brake gear, door springs and hopper operating gear something that would be extremely difficult to achieve using resin casting or plastic injection molding.

I use a freelance designer with experience in 3D printing, local and Chinese 3D printing bureau as it would have taken a long time to develop adequate 3D modelling skills to design and print a 3D wagon and could not justify the expense (at this stage) of buying a SLA printer capable of volume production.

The challenge from my perspective was finding a designer and a printing house prepared to push the boundaries on what could be achieved using 3D printing.

There is an article on the 1914 Donemana Derailment in the June 21 IRRS Journal.

Class 5 2-6-4T Letterkenny de-railed and rolled over on the points as it entered the station with a passenger train from Foyle Road at speed. While speed appears to have been a factor the large outside frame 2-6-4Ts may have been less steady that the smaller inside frame 4-6-0Ts that were the mainstay of Donegal motive power up to the introduction of larger locos in the early 1900s.

In the authors words "The passing loops at Donemana was subsequently removed and later those at Raphoe and Inver on the Strabane and Killybegs lines respectively, likely to be influenced by the events at Donemana"

Being an 'economical' railway its likely that the CDRJC relied on hand signals for backing moves when crossing trains at stations without passing loops such as Inver, there are descriptions of passengers staying on the train in railcar days during shunting moves in places like Donegal and no doubt the smaller stations.

An option for a layout for watching trains go bye with minimal pointwork is a remote junction between two single lines such as Challoch Junction between the Ayr-Stranraer Line and the Port Road in Scotland single set of points and a signalbox or several Junctions with remotely operated points and semaphore signals on the GSR & CIE system such as Clara & Banagher Junction, Colloney Junction.

For a minimum space Irish Inglenook shunting layout "Webbs Mill" at Quarterstown would fit the bill with a compact footprint and interesting buildings which could be modelled in its original form as a Corn Mill or final years as a Bitumen Depot before closure in 1977. The siding appears to have been usually worked by the Mallow pilot engine, though Roadbinders may have had some form of improvised 'rail tractor" There s a photo of B151 shunting bitumen tanker s at the mill in the Feb 2019 IRRS Journal

49 minutes ago, Georgeconna said:

Eh? 

Probably right there Noel bout the cost too.

Coca Cola uses rail  primarily to reduce its costs under the European Carbon Trading Scheme as  there was little difference in cost between using the IWT liner and road.

Perhaps some of the traffic may be diverted through Waterford Port with the recently reinstated Ballina-Belview Liner

An additional 25 trucks a day between Ballina and Dublin Port is fairly insignificant in terms of  overall road usage or Ireland's carbon emissions..

In New Zealand the timber processing industry is basically rationing timber supplies to construction, basically because the same companies cut "surplus" capacity during the 10 years following GFC and focused on exporting logs to China.

The timber supply situation and the shortage of trades people is not exactly helping a housing availability and affordability crisis which is not dissimilar to Ireland's

The Back to Back fertiliser "wagons" were de-mountable containers introduced in the late 1960s early 70s that were mounted on existing flat wagons as opposed to special purpose fertiliser wagons.  The Back to Backs appear to have been used to transport fertiliser in both fixed formation (20 wagon) Unit Trains and individual wagons loads and reached destinations that were closed under Railplan 80 such as Newcastle West & Listowel.

25970 was part of the 25436-25982 series of 20T flat wagons introduced in 1966. The wagons were basically introduced on spec to carry demountable "Lancashire Flats" and containers with a variety of load securing gear as the ISO cuplock was not finalised at the time of their introduction, cuplocks were retrofitted to the wagons to carry ISO containers and the "Back to Back" containers in the late 1960s.

Before the introduction of ISO containers in the late 1960s lot of Irish sea unit load traffic was transported door-to door by road on de-mountable "Lancashire Flats" or open containers, during the late 1960s CIE applied the same principal developing its own de-mountable flats to palletise keg and container traffic. The Back to Backs and original keg flats appear to have been a short term solution before introducing high capacity bogie wagons for these traffics. 

The end bulkheads on the Back to Back containers were used to secure the load in transit with one fixed and on adjustable bulkhead. The wagons were loaded/unloaded by removing the sides by lifting with a forklift. The flat in the photo has metal lifting hoops which may not have stood up to use in service, the random looking strips of board fixed to the sides in the Cork City railway photos appear to be to assist the fork lift driver unloading, significantly there is no damage visible to the ply panels panels from rough handling in either photo.

18 hours ago, Phil3150 said:

You beat me to it, David. Here’s a couple of tasters:

 

 

Looks like Simon de Souza's model of Dromad.

Simon produces a range of high quality C&L wagon kits which are sold under the Foxrock Models label.

I have a number of Foxrock C&L cattle wagons and opens to assemble, whenever I make the time.

I downsized from OO to N in my late teens as it was a better option for building a realistic layout in a restricted space than OO and built a U shaped end to end layout in my bedroom which was approx. 11X11.  I had struggled to fit a similar OO gauge layout into an 8X6 box room and was not happy with the crammed in effect with 2' radius curves and short train lengths, 18" radius in N is the equivalent of 3' in OO , it was easier to fit station layouts without major compression into the available space and I could run longer trains.

Originally I focused on modelling Irish buildings and structures running British locos and stock, but eventually began re-painting and modifying rtr locos and stock and ended up with several Irish diesels which passed the 2' rule. I abandoned the Irish N Gauge layout as a result of a house move and focused more on building locos or stock in 4mm as I did not have an opportunity to build a layout for another 20 years. 

Although my main interest is Irish modelling, I started collecting American N gauge during the late 1980s and eventually built a looped 8 N gauge layout in the 17'X8' loft of our house in Dublin and started work on an American style walk-round layout in a 24X12 converted garage following a move to New Zealand in 2004. 

My N gauge layouts were fairly short lived on average 2-3 years usually as a result of a house move or change in circumstances, but were thoroughly satisfying both in terms of the realistic appearance and operation modelling the railway rather than focusing narrowly on the locos and stock.

These days I work mainly in large scale with a 1:20.3 American garden layout and Irish modelling in 4mm, but I still retain my collection of N gauge American locos and stock.

For an operating railway I would avoid the Lima Irish N gauge locos as I found from bitter experience the locos were unreliable with poor power pick up and motor quality even by the standards of the 1970s & 80s though the coaches and wagons were ok

Irish N gauge layout c1980 pair of 121s kitbashed from Atlas SW1500 switchers hauling repainted Minitrix BR coaches.

Terminus station c1980 Station with allover roof based on Foynes, background buildings from sketchbook on Irish architecture, GSWR style sawtooth loco shed

American N c 2005 yard module re-located to New Zealand

American layout final Dublin op session Apl 2004 before re-loacting

5 hours ago, Dempsey said:

I maybe showing my age or lack of knowledge of anything rail related before the early nineties or both, I had no idea that these existed in another colour. Would these be the only examples of privately owned freight stock running on the network? 

My understanding is that the "Tara Mines wagons" are owned by the mine (Locomotives and Rolling Stock of CIE & NIR Editions 1-3 Oliver Doyle a reliable source).

I am uncertain about the situation with the NET Ammonia tank wagons and LHB bogie cement wagons. The Ammonia tank wagons were originally leased from Storage and Transportation Systems with the railway responsible for maintaining the wagons & NET the tank/pressure vessel.

ESSO Teo owned the tank wagons used on the North Wall-Claremorris & Sligo oil trains, the wagons were re-gauged ESSO Class A & B from the British mainland.

There are advantages for both the railway and shipper in using private owner wagons and private sidings for train load traffic. The railway was relieved of the capital cost of providing the wagons and the rail terminal and the potential loss of the traffic if the railway cannot obtain funding. The traffic from the Lisheen and Galmoy zinc mines were lost to road when the Government turned down IEs funding application presumably for wagons and a siding during the 1990s.

In the traditional "loose coupled wagon load" era the oil companies owned their own branded tank wagons with ESSO Teo the final company to own its own wagons, the GSR built 8 bulk grain hoppers for Ranks Ireland in addition to 12 GSR owned wagons of the same design these 

18 minutes ago, Al Do said:

A group of us from the Uk came over in 1994 and called in at Tuam. We noticed on the way up that all the level crossing gates were nicely painted but the weeds were about 3ft high! Got to Tuam and a crew were working on the track. Had a look in the signal box (the wooden box was gone but the base and frame still there, rusted solid!) then got chatting to the crew and asked what was happening. They said the line was being upgraded and reopened up to Sligo. I asked when? MONDAY they said!!!

Did the first train up have a brush cutter on the front????

There was still a lot of srtock in the station when we looked in, including a steam crane, turntable (I think both from Carlisle, my home at the time) but all very abandoned.

Sounds familiar a group of volunteer friends from the WHR "64 Company" used to visit Ireland in the early 90s regularly visiting Westrails operations including riding on the train and chasing the train from Athenry to Tuam.

They came back after one of the later visits with news that the Limerick-Claremorris section was due to re-open with a daily Liner train carrying coal, oil, container and steel traffic.

Some of the group were professional railwaymen who at the time held Irish Rail in high regard as things were tough for BR staff in the run up to privatisation.

The news of a daily Liner & steel traffic on the Limerick Claremorris section left me gob-smacked as there had been very little regular traffic on the line apart from the Asahi Coal & Oil since the early 1980s

The gable end of the Tram Shed appears to be visible in the right background. According to the diagram the station building and platform are behind the trees in the right distance. The "platform" visible in the photo is the goods/cattle loading bank.

Excellent not quite minimal space station shades of Bishops Castle with the station at right angles to the running line

 I am quiet happy with the way the 'Grey Engine" turned out as the original builder "gave up" on the loco after running into difficulties assembling a working chassis. The builder ran into similar difficulties assembling a number of locos to S4 standards and I picked up the J15 together with 4 other part built TMD loco kits at a UK exhibition.

The J15 is a good example of how metal kits are nearly always salvagable as a lot of parts were missing and the chassis was nearly a write off, although the original Protofour wheels were not usable I used the motor and gearbox to re-build a C&L 4-4-0T.

4 hours ago, airfixfan said:

Was told at a meeting only 2 days ago that a Heritage Railway closed since 2000 would reopen next year. Then how a steam engine last used early 1960 would be in steam next year. Complete lack of reality from that group and their influential support within their local Council

 Whilst all those involved know nothing about railways and think operating a steam engine is as easy as buying a train set! Rant 3

Cannot criticise the support group too much for their lack of reality. There is only one way to gain experience in restoring and running a railway, though talking and considering the advice of other preservation groups helps.

The big questions are whether there is a written agreement in place between the Council and the Support Group to restore the railway and whether there is anything in the 2021 or 2022 Budget to finance or underwrite the restoration otherwise nothing happens.

In a way the Tralee steam railway is in a similar position to the Welsh Highland Railway during the 1960s after spending several years overcoming Caernarfon County Councils objections to restoring the northern end of the railway, the Council was abolished and negotiations had to start from scratch with the newly established Gwynedd County Council which ultimately delayed the restoration of the railway for 30 years.

I won't go into the internal in-fighting between the pragmatists and dreamers within the original preservation group but at the end of the day the dreamers won and the pragmatist lost, but that another complicated story.

Going back to JHBs point on passenger numbers passenger numbers the busier NZ preserved railways would have a similar operating pattern and carry similar passenger numbers to Downpatrick https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/business/416927/glenbrook-vintage-railway-seeks-passenger-support-for-historical-train,  other lines carry far few passengers operate once monthly or less frequently, on the majority of lines locomotive and rolling stock restoration and maintenance is financed, by individuals and groups with little or no public money.

Going on from JHBs "rant", I think the underlying problem is that there is an expectation in Ireland for someone else (Councils, Government and EU) to solve their problems and fund their pet projects rather than try and fund a project locally.

Comparing sporting bodies like the GAA with several hundred thousand of a membership and railway preservationists who can probably muster a couple of thousand across the Island of Ireland is a bit like comparing apples and bananas. Put simply fixing 5T and re-opening the Tralee Steam Railway is not going to attract a lot of votes when there is a problem with affordable housing and hospital waiting lists.

Many of the preserved railways and museums in the UK were established and operate without Government support, some such as the Dartmouth and Vale of Rheidol and Brecon Mountain are fully commercial operations usually owned by wealthy individuals or family trusts as their own private railway without a supporters group. The Festiniog is a hybrid the railway was rescued by a group of wealthy individuals in the early 50s and controlled by a group of Trustees appointed by the owners with a large supporting society. Some of the preserved railways and museums in the UK are not unlike the RPSI established by enthusiasts in the 1950s and 60s largely dependent of sympathetic railway officials, volunteer and enthusiast support.

I don't buy the Ireland is too small and spread out to support preserved railway or museums, New Zealand has similar population to Ireland spread out over the land area of the British Isles, with preserved railway and museums at most major centers over the length of the country. Although there is some local government support very few could be classed as financially viable, with restoration, repairs and maintenance funded by the owners and preservation groups.

Another big difference for NZ and Ireland is Kiwi Ingenuity or No 8 Baler Wire Mentality being in a remote country people had to work out solutions for themselves.

The South Island practice of restoring steam locos that were dumped in rivers is probably the best example.   https://www.waimeaplainsrailway.co.nz/rogers-K92

One down two left to go! The White Engine now the "Grey Engine" successfully re-assembled  and test run though there is some work left to do including weighting the tender, finding and fitting buffer heads, lettering/number plate and couplings.

Interestingly the GSR grey looks darker when viewed under soft lighting on the "layout" rather than a daylight bulb on the workbench.

The loco test run without any sign of shorting despite full brake gear and very tight wheel/splasher clearance and runs slightly shorter than my two older J15s 191 & 193.

Some work on 229 & the Z boiler loco grinding off excess metal and solder inside the splashers and test fitting a set of AGW driving wheels set with a 19.3 B-B leaving cigarette paper wheel-splasher running clearances. I am very reluctant to reduce to reduce the B-B Gauge to 19mm and adapt OO running clearances as this is likley to lead to running problems with the majority of my 21mm gauge locos which are fitted with the narrower Sharman driving wheels.

26 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

I'm sure if there was ever a suggestion that 5T were to leave Tralee there'd be a host of objections from people who cared about it all of a sudden.
 

Exactly!

Just like the the protests about moving 5C Slieve Callan to Moyasta for restoration & Oliver Moylan refusing to get off the loco.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/restored-steam-engine-back-on-the-tracks-after-57-years-1.691033

I wonder how many would pitch physically or financially to restore the loco or re-open the railway.

With its focus on railcar operation the Donegal was down to a few steam crews in its final years presumably with maintenance staff focusing on essential maintenance and little time for cleaning steam locos.

Interesting the shiny dome and the fallout from smoke and ash on the cab & sidetanks.

There was an interesting weathering pattern on the coalfired black Cumbres and Toltec steam locos (still 3' gauge) 

The upper part of the locos were weathered grey with ash with only the vertical surfaces black and a hint of a sheen on the sand and steam domes, on American locos the smokebox and chimney is usually painted with a heat resistant graphite paint. Interestingly the weathering appears much more subdued and less noticeable in photos than when I saw the locos in operation.

The neighbouring Durango and Silverton locos appeared to be cleaner possibly different coal source or a greater focus on cleaning and presentation. 

While the C&TS appeared at least to me to be the more "authentic" of the two railroads, the boxcar (generator car) was a nice tribute to the days of the weekly "Silverton Mixed" which operated in the 1950s

10 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

Am I seeing, in that pic, the loco frame cut open lengthways???? Buffer beam half cut across???

What ON EARTH have they done to it!

It looks like the boiler was lifted and the tubes cut out for a boiler inspection with the section of running board between the buffer beam and smokebox removed for access.

The boiler and firebox require major work or replacement, the current boiler appears to date from a 1906 rebuild due to age, 53 years work in railway service and 62 years deterioration while in preservation.

The loco was in regular use on the T&D up to the mid 1940s  and was heavily used putting up the highest mileage of the three ex-T&D locos during its 10 years service on the Cavan & Leitrim.

The loco basically needs a wealthy sponsor or a group prepared to put commit serious money to restoring and maintaining the loco

The basic problem is that 5T would require a sponsor or a group willing to commit upwards of €20-30,000 annually without the expectation of a return to a fund the overhaul and maintain the loco.

I had an involvement with a narrow gauge (mainly volunteer) Welsh Highland Heritage Railway in the UK of similar length to the Tralee and Blennerville, fare income just about covered operating costs (fuel, oil, running maintenance) but not the cost of restoring and overhauling locos and rolling stock which is funded directly by society members, appeals and bequests.

During the last 20 years over £100,000 was raised by donations  (membership and general public) for the overhaul of the railways flagship Hunslet 2-6-2T locomotive Russell,  Bagnall 0-4-2T Gelert was fitted with a new boiler in 2018 as a result of sponsorship and direct funding by the owners, two replica bogie coaches were constructed and the restoration of a Baldwin 4-6-0PT commenced as a result of a bequest by a late member. The preservation society is small by UK standards with approx. 1000 members.

19 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

Most who saw B101s in use will remember them in black, as this was the livery most carried, most of the time in the 1960s.

 

That's an interesting train consist 2 4w Post office vans, TPO followed by a Park Royal------------possible location Cork Coaching?

The B101s were pretty much as "Southern" loco working on the GSWR system, Dublin-Cork, Dublin-Waterford and Waterford-Limerick mainly on freight and mail trains after the introduction of the B141 Class.

In they worked Heuston Goods-North Wall transfer freights and Parcel Trains to Dunlaoire . 

My first sighting of a B101 was in the bay platform (old station) in Dunlaoire  with a parcels train, I noticed the shape of the loco and bogies were different to a Metrovick.

There usually appeared to be a B101 at Liffey Bridge Junction (waiting to depart with a transfer freight for the North Wall ) when I passed on the 23 bus on trips to the city center or visits to relatives on the Northside. The loose coupled transfer freights were usually banked by an E Class from Island Bridge Junction through the tunnel to Cabra.

Going back to the original question my understanding is that 5T was originally loaned by the GSRPS to the company the Tralee and Blennerville Railway with the owners having (very) limited access to the locomotive.  

I also understand that there is considerable resistance to removing 5T from Blennerville to another restoration site.

The Tralee and Blennerville was expected to operate on a fully commercial basis financed under a Business Expansion Scheme  (BES)that allowed the company shareholders to obtain tax relief on their investment. https://www.companyformations.ie/other-services/business-expansion-scheme-bes/.

Its likely the company ceased operation once it became obvious that the railway was not generating sufficient income to pay staff, maintain locomotives rolling stock, way and works and that additional capital investment or loans were required to overhaul 5T. 

It looks like the Tralee Council and more recently Kerry County Council are reluctant to get involved for similar reasons.

I have been asked to produce the etched parts for the above locos to 2mm scale by re-scaling (shrinking) the artwork and reducing the metal thickness from 0.4 to 0.2mm.

The 52 Class fret includes loco body and loco and tender chassis.

The Ks/650 includes loco and tender body and loco and tender chassis for the round topped boiler version with MGWR Canopy and Inchacore style cabs.

If anyone is interested please PM or reply to this thread.

1 hour ago, connollystn said:

The 007s shouldn't feel too bad, it's a lot more popular than this years UK's Eurovision entry.

007 a hero of a locomotive should never feel bad!

007 came to the rescue in 76 or 77 when a north bound passenger failed near Templemore. 

An IRRS special from Youghal to Dublin was blocked at Thurles, 007 was on Pilot Duty at Thurles worked wrong road around the obstruction.

Thurles shed was still in operation complete with a 26000 series pallet van loaded with spare parts and stores in the Bay Platform, presumably the shed would have been very busy in the Beet Season, a base for Lisduff Ballast trains and  Pilot Loco for shunting and Thunderbird duties although that term did not evolve for another 20-30 years!

Not sure what would happen these days if a loco hauled MK4 set failed on the Main Line no pilots or locos to rob off Cork Line freights