BSGSV

19 minutes ago, Glover said:

Again, thanks to you Lambeg.

I know I'm a bit like a dog with a bone on this photo of 786N but would anyone agree with me that the end MAY be painted tan?

Does your memory stretch to that level  of detail BSGSV? 

Woof!!

Glover

Glover, I'm not old enough to remember seeing them in the flesh, I'm afraid. I rely on old photos and documents.

Mr. McQuail's photo was in colour, which was handy, and 779N had a black end, the golden brown and white were just on the sides. I had another look at the photo of 786N, and the white definitely isn't taken across the end anyway. What I didn't spot first time around was the bloke in the background. What was he standing on?

I have seen a photograph by Pat McQuail of 779N in freshly applied B&T. Photo says Inchicore, but it looks like Limerick to me. The IRRS may have Pat McQuail's photos now.

I think it may be from the starting signal release key mechanism attached to an ETS staff instrument. When you get a release from the signalman in advance to take a staff from the instrument, you can also take the key out, and use it to release the lock on the starting signal lever in the lever frame. 

For the several minutes of pleasure it has given me, just gazing at that lovely picture, thank you.

Nice. Looks like Up and Down Sligo's crossing at Longford. 

On 4/20/2019 at 2:49 AM, Mayner said:

The TPOs a bit of a puzzle. The majority of GSWR and MGWR 6w and bogie TPOs had been officially withdrawn from service before the B121 Class entered service.

Van appears to be a bogie rather than a 6w van (4 axleboxes showing) with GSWR rather than MGWR design features, including roof profile, gas lighting, window profile and continuous lower foot boards.

Looks very close to 245 a 45' GSWR TPO built in 1900 officially withdrawn in 1959 .

Van appears to be in good cosmetic condition painted in the late 50s green with single eau-de-nil stripe paint scheme.

A pair of  GSWR built TPOs survived into the 1960s these were longer more modern looking vehicles with elliptical roofs completely unlike the van in the Athenry  photo

Its just about possible that GSWR TPO was "cascaded" from the Southern on to the Midland to replace a more modern ex-MGWR TPO as Inchacore rolled out its first batch of Laminate TPOs in 1959.

 

I would suspect it is one of 2952-4, converted from GSW 45' non-corridor, gas lit carriages in 1950. They retained the gas lighting and lack of corridors. These were allocated to the Galway Night Mails in the 1950's, two working, one spare, which also probably covered for 1M on the Day Mail. Like you, I am surprised to see one still about with a 121 class., given the 17 "Silver" CIE built TPO's were about by this time. 

Apologies if I have distracted from the 121 thread again!

1 hour ago, RedRich said:

129 as wel in IE excellent. I'll be able to keep 124 and 134 permanently double headed then. I think 133 had the two cab window's at the bonnet side blanked out also in IE livery.

Rich,

Not 133. 123 and 131 were the pair other than 124 and 134 to get refurbished. 131 was the first and differed in some details from the others. A fire put paid to 131 and 123 seems to have had electrical issues and ended up as the inchicore Works Pilot for a long while.

B121 looks like Athenry with an Up train at the Down platform, given the red disc signal between the tracks. No pipe on the bridge at that time. See O'Dea's photos: http://catalogue.nli.ie/Collection/vtls000148612/Home?lookfor=athenry (hopefully will work).

Looks like 121 to me. The vertical part of the last digit is parallel to the first "1" and not parallel to the middle part of the "2".

For information, I picked up the photos I referred to before from eBay (other auction sites are available). There may be other Mundy photos that I haven't seen.

The carriage numbers Mr. Mundy took pics of at Antrim on 28/10/67, that I have are:

Lined: N384, N464, 338, 342, 375

Unlined: 291, 230, 385

Also lined N609 (photo Portadown 4/5/68, carriage in very poor condition with panels missing).

There are Nigel Mundy photographs taken at Antrim in 1967 which show carriages without lining. As they are black and white photographs the base colour is unclear. Given that the unlined ones are among others with lining and they were all photographed the same day, it is clear that the unlined ones are so, and not just that the lining has faded. On the lined ones, the straw shows up very clearly. All the carriages seem to be stored.

On 3/31/2019 at 10:09 PM, Edo said:

Hi Ernie

from the top

Im pretty sure the middle photo is Bridgetown and the bottom photo is Campile - the first one has me puzzled.

On that line - all the stations , Campile , Ballycullane, Wellington bridge , Bridgetown and to lesser extent  Killinick were all set up roughly the same - the passenger platform in the middle of the passing loops with sidings for beet, Cattle and freight loading......Im tempted to shout the top photo as Ballycullane - but its so hard to be sure - and virtually impossible to tell these days after the wholesale unwarranted vandalism by CIE in the rationalisation of the line after the late 70's..........

No idea of the year - 1970-1977 - given the livery and the fashion - I was only a nipper then.

Ed

 

 

I'd agree with Ballycullane, as the only other contender, Killinick, doesn't match.

6 hours ago, Mayner said:

It looks like a signal man would have had to stand beside the running line at track level to exchange a staff at the North Cabin and potentially risk serious injury, so far safer to exchange the staff on the platform and speak to another person.

CIE sometimes  provided a small platform at the cabin where a manual  staff exchange could not take place at a station platform.

Interesting to see a large ETS staff in use on a busy main line at such a late date.

Large ETS was in use throughout the GNRI, from introduction of block working to (mostly) line closure. But then, they didn't have such a need for replacement new instruments in the early 1920's, because nasty people decided to burn their cabins down (though there was a bit of that). Nor did they have as much singling later. And they seem to have been poorer than the GSR in the 1930's, so less inclined to spend if they didn't have to.

It might be a case of why attempt to exchange large ETS with the train on the move, if you can do it with the train stopped and have a few words with the train crew?

I could well be wrong, but I'm not sure the 6-wheel carriages are in Dublin. Is there any chance they could be in Albert Quay?

I'm glad to be of some help. I meant to look at that awful Beaumont's book when I got home from work to check Ardrahan, but forgot! (Only joking JHB, I blame Barry).

I'm disappointed I failed to identify 186 too.

143+186 date is 13/5/1978. Location could be Ardrahan.

If the date of the one with the horse is right, then it must be 171 on the RPSI 10th Anniversary Railtour, which went Whitehead - York Road- Waterside - York Road - Whitehead.

I think B159 is at Tipperary, Limerick Junction end, with both main and loop starters on the same side.

Interesting thought re the G class.

With regard to the railcars in use as hauled stock, as they had vacuum brakes they were used (as IRN shows) more than once as hauled stock for relief trains. 

1 hour ago, chris said:

that's the old Killiney and Ballybrack station, right. Not the same as the current one. Down on the corner on Seaview Rd rather than current location?

The station has been at that site since the 19th Century. (1880's?) A nice shot showing the Up starter from the down platform, for short workings terminating at Killiney. Third and fourth carriages in Aluminium silver, is one one of the Suburban compos? Anyway, a bit of a sidetrack.

Irish Railfans' News, August 1969 on the subject of A class liveries:

The silver livery of the first As was offset by green numerals at each end and about half-way along each side, by a green CIÉ “snail” emblem on each side, and by the red buffer beams. As the years passed the livery became more and more dishevelled until by 1958 all (except A16 and A19 which were repainted in 1957) were grubby, to say the least. A change was made then: in May 1958 A46 appeared in a livery of dark green with a light green waistband and numerals. The buffer beams remained red. About the same time A36 appeared in a lighter green without the waistband but with numerals and buffer beams similar to A46. In time A locos 10, 11, 15, 24, 25, 34, 45, 51, 54, 57, 59 and 60 came out of the shops in the “A46 livery”; this was during 1958-59.
Early in 1960 the overall light green livery, as on A36, began appearing on a wide scale. Late in that year A46 itself succumbed and came out sans waistband in the lighter green. The preference for the lighter green livery continued until mid-1961 although it should be noted that no other loco made the transition from the dark green to the light green livery. Thus in 1961 the A class locos bore two green liveries while the original silver livery (in a really poor state) was still to be found.
There was a dramatic change in September 1961, when A6 appeared in a livery of black, golden brown and white. The white consisted of a band around the loco, a little below roof height, which dipped to a point at either end over the ridge between the cab windows. Below this was a wide layer of black which likewise came down in a point, this time below the cab windows and immediately below the point of the white band. The rest of the bodywork was brown, and the buffer beams were the familiar red. The numbers were in white on each end only. This livery spread gradually during 1962-3, though after the first few locos the black band was made narrower. To confuse the picture, however, A16 appeared early in 1962 resplendent in the original silver livery!
Though the “black and tan” livery (as it was very quickly dubbed) was applied to A locos: 1-3, 5-8, 12, 14, 15, 17, 20, 22-24, 27, 31, 36, 37, 39, 40, 47, 48, 50, 52, 56 and 58, there were still some locos running at this time in the old silver colours. The latter were by now exceedingly worn and some numbers were barely visible. Then early in 1964 A30 appeared completely black in colour, the only relief being a white band above cab window level at each end; this rose to a point in the centre, between the windows. There were white numerals at each end and midway along the sides; the buffer beams were orange. This did not last long - only 2 other locos were so treated, A49 and A55 - but was replaced by a slightly-modified version in which the buffer beams reverted to red, and the centrally-placed side numerals were replaced by two separate smaller numbers on the sides: one at each end, just above the bogie and behind the cab door.
The modified black and white livery remained unchallenged until mid-1968 and almost all the class were painted in it. There were exceptions, of course: As 1, 15, 22, 37 and 52 remained black and tan, the damaged A54 was still dark green, while A16, following its efforts in the filming of “Darling Lili”, was in a rather extraordinary livery which was mainly black with a stretch of black and tan at either end. By this time also, A58R and A59R had appeared in black and tan.
In June 1968 A52 appeared in a variant on the all black livery. It had a yellow patch covering each end from just below the cab windows down to the buffer beam, the yellow area being the full width of the loco. The numbers at each end were in black. The livery was not adopted for A15, which was since repainted in black and white, without the yellow ends. The current position is thus: As 22, 37, 58R, 59R: black and tan; As 4, 12, 13, 20, 24,31, 34, 50, 52, 55: black and white with yellow ends. All others are black and white.

21 hours ago, Mayner said:

A number of A Class appear to have been painted in the high band scheme before the all-black with white eyebrow scheme was introduced. There are photos of A6, 15,16,39 in Barry Carse's book. The tan band on A6 (the guinea pig for the scheme_ almost looks shallower than the other locos or possibly an optical illusion.

The low band was originally called the "dipped" scheme in contemporary IRRS Journals may have been introduced like the black to make grime and oil spillage of the flanks of these locos less noticeable. Even the flanks of the  re-engined Metrovicks  tended to get dirty very quickly compared to the pure bred GM locos, I am not sure if the weathering arose as a result of oil leakage similar to the IC125 power cars in the UK or simply grime washed off the roof by the weather.

Possibly a case for a some form of dynamic weathering (smoke unit?) so that the loco becomes increasingly dirty as mileage/time in service build up.

I would agree with you that the tan on A6 seemed a little lower than others.

The high golden brown band seems (at least on the Transplants) to stop just under the grill for the traction motor blower (by then removed) at No. 2 end. I'm not sure if the dipped band was to hide dirt, although it might have helped in that regard. I had thought it was to avoid having to paint the band through the radiator grills and side doors. Oil thrown out the exhaust led in later years to some A's having strips placed above the cab front windows to stop the oil being then smeared by the wipers across the screen, which for some reason didn't help the driver see the line too well.

Regarding CAWS (and radio), that appeared with DART re-signalling and Suburban CTC (complete with ATP for the DART units themselves) and was retro-fitted to Mainline CTC slightly later, and as that expanded, was generally rolled out with the colour lights within a short time period. CAWS guards weren’t fitted originally, and were developed due to the number of CAWS receivers getting bashed by objects on the track, as the receivers were outside the life guards. Many locos didn't receive them before they were withdrawn.

I understand that the IRM team are looking at the variations in anything you can think of including front windows, buffers, fuel gauges, wipers, footsteps etc. etc. as one has come to expect with their attention to detail. I don't envy them the livery discussions.

Interior view here from Irish Railways Past and Present. Looks like a clerestory coach.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=2312188505670533&set=gm.1195432550610101&type=3&theater&ifg=1

17 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

Actually, Bill Scott is probably the greatest living authority on NCC locos. He's always delighted to assist.

Isn't No. 16 covered in Mr. Scott's book on NCC locos?

Tooban Junction was a Railway Signal Co. design, replicated very frequently in different sizes throughout Ireland and Britain, although Tooban looks quite nnarrow from pictures.

The small flat roof buildings (Bridge End, Letterkenny, Fahan, Buncrana, Clonmany and Carndonagh are examples) are Dutton and Co. style huts, either by Duttons themselves, or possible by JF Pease who took them over.