jhb171achill

Yes, Anthony. Dunluce Castle and BCDR 30 were painted in their original liveries by the UTA under the direction of the late Harold Houston, whose knowledge of all things NCC and BCDR was encyclopaedic. They can therefore be taken as absolutely accurate - more than can be said, sadly, for many things the museum have repainted themselves. 800 was accurate in CIE green until the museum added the GSR initials on the tender - it should be a flying snail for that livery. However, 800 was painted in Inchicore before being taken north, so the green paint and lining is authentic CIE. The Donegal stock in the museum is also accurate, as it is actually the livery they were taken out of traffic in. The Castlederg coach is not at all accurate, and while the colour on the Cavan & Leitrim coach is accurate enough GSR maroon, the lettering most certainly isn't right! But, as a friend of mine who works there mentioned one time, it's better an item survives in the wrong livery, than doesn't survive at all!

Hidden Agenda, that's an officially made model by / for NIR - very accurate in al details and a must to see for anyone modelling one of these engines.

Yes. She was never black, but when built almost certainly battleship grey. She was repainted at some stage in standard CIE green, lined in black and white. This livery may be seen on 800 in Cultra. Drew Donaldson's models, fascinating as they were, did not employ authentic liveries, nor the correct shade of CIE green. Having said that, they looked very well!

On the subject of Cultra, there are many significant livery inaccuracies there too, despite being a museum. Apart from 800 being in CIE green but with G S markings, the goods brake has black and white markings on the ducket (should be yellow and black) and the GSWR gunpowder van is the wrong colour and has the wrong lettering, in the wrong style!

Ah Heirflick, a photo shopped 141 / 181 (or a 121?) in NIR Enterprise maroon would be a REAL talking point!

True, Anthony. I know there are several here beyond my time; and also a few younger than my youngest offspring... which is great. That's what is so good about this hobby, and of railways in general. I spent last evening in the company of a friend whose dad and my own dad would have known each other on IRRS trips in the fifties.... my nephew is now involved with real-life preservation and also has a black'n'tan era layout.....

I see that "griff" character has been sneaking about your house at night! :-)

WOW!! That looks amazing! Superb

Yes, indeed, Minister, it was. It started life on the Castleisland Railway Company - it is not known whether they had a livery of their own for their only locomogtive, but it would have been painted in GSWR colours after only a few years. The appropriate version of GSWR livery for that time is what it now carries in Downpatrick. The precise scheme was obtained from a large scale model built at Inchicore around tha time (of a GSW 2.4.0) and presented to the Institute of Mechanical Engineers in London, where it resides to this day, and may be viewed by appointment.

It would subsequently have acquired the later version of lining with the same dark green - this was cream and black. After about 1905 it would have been repainted black with red lining, and probably retained this after its 1915 rebuild into its current state. The grey started to appear about 1918 and quickly spread to most GSW locos, and to all GS ones after 1925. When 90 was withdrawn it was painted the way you (and I) remember it. This was a reonable approximation of an earlier GSWR livery, as carried on No. 36 in Cork station. That lighter green seems to have been replaced by the dark olive green about 1870 - before 90's time.

90 first went on display in its post-withdrawal scheme at Fermoy, and later to Mallow. It is DCDR's intention to keep it as it is. Basically the loco is in working order, but it needs a boiler lift for insurance and a number of small adjustments made before it re-enters traffic, though this will come abouit in due course. There are several youtube clips of it in traffic, one showing it fully lined in late 1870s style.

Eiretrains, you never know what you might see at Downpatrick in the future!! :-) Yes, I prefer the maroon and blue too. The light blue and grey, and the lighter blue on Hunslets (and, for that matter, 111s) was somewhat drab. Interesting to speculate what a trio of 181s would have looked like in maroon, if NIR had gone for them!

Ah yes! The double ended Enterprise. A relative of mine was in the UTA when initial talk was of these three engines being ordered from Hunslet, the plans having been made about the time of the handover to NIR. The loco people wanted 141s, citing the good track record on CIE and the compatibility of same. But the politicial masters insisted on buying a British loco. British, or American, or not, the engines had no precedent and therefore were something of an experiment to the fledgling NIR. Thus, like many prototypes they were found to be somewhat underpowered for a heavy Enterprise, so partly for this reason and partly to assist turn-round at termini*, the train was initially topped and tailed, usually by 101 and 102. When loadings were light, and also in later days when the trio became less reliable due to operating flat out (sound familiar?), one loco only was more normal, pushing one way and pulling the other.

(* In pre-Hunslet days, the Enterprise in the recent past had been railcars, 70 class and prior to that AEC / BUT sets, so running round the Enterprise had already become something of a past event).

The sound of a topped and tailed train at full pelt was something to remember, like a pair of 121's with a heavy beet climbing up to Ballycullane.....

Many thanks, gents. If there's anything else I can dig up I'll post that too. Mayner mentions Drew - yes, strange that he was one of several who meticulously recorded detail, liveries, what locos worked what links and so on.. anyone who knew him will remember the importance he placed on accuracy, and yet he did indeed paint his locos in liveries which for the most part they never carried... Just goes to show that if the owner of a layout wants accuracy, he can have it with information available, or if he prefers something else he's free to do so - it's his layout.

I should point out that I would never criticise anyone for preferring to depict something that was not in real life - I had at one stage planned (if I EVER get time!) a layout based on a 3ft gauge version of the Achill line - which most certainly never was! My point in maing posts is to make available information that I have the good fortune to be able to research accurately, for the benefit of whoever wants it.

On the subject of layouts in general, apart from liveries, the main thing I notice nowadays is the massively high standards of modelling achieved by both individuals and the several small manufacturers who are making kits currently. I look at the B101 class, the new De Dietrich carriages, the 4 wheel "tin vans" and many more - the pinnacle for me is the model of 800 - who would ever have thought such high class stuff would be available only a few years ago. In my teenage years, a CIE train meant Hornby mk 1's crudely painted black'n'tan.... and an LMS 0.6.0in grey to haul them.... no Murphy Models 141's in a variety of liveries then. If only.

Meantime, I'll poke about for more livery details.

Having managed to find old notes in the chaotic parallel world which to outsiders is my "study", here are the details I had promised of loco liveries. The bulk of this material originated from the late Drew Donaldson and Bob Clements, both probably the greatest ever authorities on GSR / CIE steam locomotives.

In GSR days, all locomotives were battleship grey as currently seen on RPSI's J15 186. This was inherited from the GSWR's post-1918 livery. No lining was applied, and cab interiors, frame interiors, every single detail bar the red buffer beams, were grey. The GSR never painted anything, broad or narrow gauge, black. Given an exception to every rule, of course, the GSR had just three: the 800 class, painted a mid-green with bluish tint, and yellow (not white) and black lining. Name and number plates on the 800 class had raised polished numbers and lettering, and blue backgrounds. All other (grey) locos had the numberplates just painted over, or sometimes the raised edges and numbers polished to bare metal, and occasionally painted a light creamy yellow colour, particularly after CIE took over.

In CIE days, a small number of locos were painted lined green, as on 800 in Cultra Museum (though ignore the "G S" on its tender - should be a "flying snail" for that livery). The locomotives painted green were as follows:

1. All surviving 4.6.0s inc. 400 class, 800 class, etc.

2. All repainted "Woolwich" 2.6.0s. One, No. 384, received a lined black livery, with red lining, eau-de-nil "snail" and cream painted cabside number, as depicted on the excellent Murphy Models version, for a short time in then late '50s. This loco was used on the Cork - Rosslare (via Mallow) Boat Train.

3. Most Dublin Suburban tank engines.

4. B4 class No. 467, D4 No. 336 (for a short period, then back to grey), D12 No. 305 and D14 No. 61 (which latter must have made a fine sight!). GSWR J30 (preserved at Downpatrick) was repainted in the late 1950s in its final years of traffic in a shade which if not actual black was as good as black. It had a large painted pale yellow number at that stage.

5. One ex-GSWR J15 (193), and one ex-MGWR J18 (593), which were repainted in Cork shortly before the end of steam had the all over grey but with black smoke boxes. One "Bandon Tank" (464) also based there was repainted at the same time in what appears to have been a much darker shade of grey, with black smoke box.

6. In the very final years of steam (late 50s to early 60s), some of the very few locomotives which saw a paintbrush by then were turned out in unlined black. They were few in number and I have the details somewhere, but not to hand. When I find the info I'll post it here in the hope that it is of assistance.

7. All locomotives receiving green livery except the 800 class had painted numerals and "snails" - in both cases, the standard pale green "eau-de-nil" colour was used, as opposed to the light yellow used to paint numerals on grey / black locomotives. "Snails" were n ever light yellow though - light green on tenders of grey / black engines. No tender engines (including, not surprisingly, all narrow gauge engines), ever had "snails".

8. No narrow gauge engines were ever green or black. (A Cavan & Leitrim 4.4.0 would have looked amazing in green!! The closest to this was in the form of C & L No. 1 which remained in C & L green until the mid 1930s, thus one of the very last locos in pre-grouping livery. C & L livery was green, lined red and white).

9. Details: the "eau-de-nil" snails were lined in gold, and green locos had buffer beams (always red) lined with black.

10. The 800 class differed from other green locos in retaining their numberplates. One of the trio (or possibly two, but not 800 itself) had a red-painted background to the name and numberplates, as currently on the RPSI's 461. For a very short time over the winter of 1952/3, 802 carried a lighter shade of green, possibly as a short-term experiment, as the lighter green applied to carriages, some railcars and diesel locomotives appeared a short time later.

I hope this is of interest.

I think the old TT gauge track (long discontinued?) was 12mm gauge - or more likely, the more modern 00n3. This is 4mm scale, 3ft gauge. 009 track could be used to more or less represent the few 2ft gauge BnM lines. One of those would make an interesting layout - but here's a thought: a large scale version! "G" scale (garden railway = gauge 1) track would allow a large model - a good chunky Wagonmaster on that would be good, and the turf wagons would look huge! It would also be easier to run a train over the runcible uneven wobbly track. Modelling this on 009 or 00n3 scale would require perfectly smooth model track, which would have avery strange look about it! BnM 4-wheeled diesels and turf wagons gliding along smoothly like a French TGV!

Robert - if you mean those corrugated-sided ones, when single-storey (as it were!) they were as seen above - an aluminiumy colour - probably originally unpainted? Latterly, when double stacked, I think I saw some in the standard all over brown, but I could not be sure. The all-over nondescript grey/dirt is the best option. Sometimes they had a smear of brown paint under the number on the chassis. However, if you mean beet wagons in general, until the mid 70s standard wooden-planked open wagons were also to be seen. The further back you go, the more of those would be needed. The wooden bodied wagons used on such traffic would also have faded flying snails well into the '70s, and were all standard CIE wagon grey, all over - no black ironwork, chassis or wheels! In the last few years of beet, when containerisation was experimented with, the containers were in standard bogie flats - all brown, of course.

Ahhhh I remember..... "Zhivago's" night club (as advertised on the back of th bus in that vid as he turn s left at the Rotunda... and U2 were the support act in McGonigles and the Baggot Inn (which was my haunt)....

Gents - if there is a sufficient number interested, I can arrange a jaunt to the Downs of P some time. What about a meet-up there on New Years Day? 146 and new loco No. 1 will be out and about.

I'm afraid on oul wan like me would have to hark back to the days of a hotch potch of park royals, laminates, cravens and bredins, no two identical, with an "A" or (much less often) a "pair" up front! Steak dinner in a swaying 24xx dining car, with a dribbly-spout teapot....

In a strange twist, those coaches would be much closer to some of the former Whitehead based RPSI "wooden set" - as coaches of this design were used by the NCC, and survived into UTA / NIR / RPSI ownership. CIE green, flying snails, etc - no! If Bachmann wanted to recreate something of early CIE era, they would have been better off using LMS steel-sided types and passing them off as Bredins, either in green or black'n'tan; therein, actually, lies a tip for modellers!

The "eau-de-nil" bands never had a white lining, but they DID have gold lining. If you are ever in Clifden, Co Galway, traces of this can be seen on the old MGWR 6-wheeler behind the Station House Hotel (in which I have imbibulated many a selection of finely poured Guinnii!)

At Downpatrick, a variation of the darker green livery may be seen on brake standard 3223. The green is totally authentic early CIE brunswick green. The lining is of the later variety. This livery variation was more often seen on AEC railcars than anything else, and the CIE TPO there has the correct version of the post-1955 lighter green, with pale green lining without gold trim, which was dropped about 1954. The RPSI Dublin Heritage Set also has the authentic later green, while the correct shades of the older dark green sem to be evident on crew coach 813 (GSWR origin) inside Mullingar shed, though this would only be accessible to authorised RPSI folk.

Hope this helps.

It'll be good to see it, Anthony. If the idea is to make it look recently painted, eyewitness accounts refer to brand-newly painted GSR / CIE grey as having a very subtle / vague "bluish" tint.... make of that what you will! Though I have to say I detected that on 186 - in certain lighting conditions - when newly painted. Good luck!

Ha! As soon as O & K No. 1 reappears at Downpatrick, someone has to post up its new livery before it's even painted!!! :-)

Correct, Mayner; though grey was in fact the livery colour all along - albeit applied to not only the main parts of the loco, but also the smokebox, chimney, inside frames, inside cab and tender, roof inside and out, etc, etc; in fact, the only non-grey bit was the buffer beams. Cork did indeed paint some locos as you describe, probably no more than 2 or 3 though, but including at least one J15. Cork also painted one or two locos all-black, and Limerick may also have done.

The "snail" on tenders was a very faint green called "eau-de-nil" - same as the pale green applied to snails (and broad lining) on buses and carriages. However the cabside number was a dark cream colour, almost pale yellow.

In GSR days, when almost every loco had a standard Inchicore cabside numbeplate, the raised edges and numerals on these were usually just all painted over grey, but quite often they were rubbed smooth to bare metal, as on RPSI's 186. In CIE days, most plates were taken off and numerals painted, but quite a few locos entered the 1950s with the plates intact. By this stage, another variation was added - either the number only, or the number and rim, painted with the same pale yellow used on larger painted numerals. I have seen evidence of at least two locos which had the numbers on retained plates painted what looks like white; in one case number only, in the other number and rim.

If you are modelling a specific loco, if you can find a photo of what variation it had, all the better. If you can't, then others are unlikely to either, so you can paint the whole engine tartan and nobody can tell you off! :-)

Hope all of this helps.

No GSR / CIE engine ever ran only in green or black except the 800 class, which were always green. All GSWR locos started being painted battleship grey all over about 1918, replacing the earlier lined black livery. When the GSR was born in 1925, the all over grey spread to every other loco they had from other companies, with the exception mentioned. CIE continued this unique but singularly dull livery, altering it only by gradually replacing the cast number plates on locomotives with painted numbers, and the addition of "flying snails" to most tender engines, but no tank engines.

Towards the end of steam, from about 1955 onwards (but NOT before), a small number of locomotives were painted black, and at least one J15 received the grey but with a black smokebox; this livery variation came from Cork shed, I believe, or possibly Limerick works.

Woolwich locos were all grey until some time about 1950 when most became green, but not all. One was repainted (like the model) in lined black. This was specially done for the Cork - Mallow - Rosslare express. Others were grey - but modellers can bear in mind that the grey varied occasionally in shade, and a few engines over the years looked almost black, especially after a period of being cleaned with oily rags. RPSI's 186 was painted grey some years ago. At the time, a number of people saw her close up, who would also have seen newly painted locos in Inchicore in the past, and their verdict was that the RPSI shade was exactly right. I think at least one other Woolwich was plain black, but I'd have to check.

Dirty engines could look black too. I do have a list of CIE locomotives somewhere which received actual black paint, but there were only (from memory) at best a couple of dozen; I had a look just now but can't put my hand to it. I'll post the list here when I can.

From memory, no class ALL received black - it was just odd locos here and there. I think there was black on at least one or two of the following: Bandon tanks, 400 class, Woolwichs, and i think a 60-class 4.4.0. No J15s were ever black, though one (as mentioned) had a black smokebox, though grey elsewhere.

The CIE green was applied in the same way - to whatever odd locos came in and out of the works, and often just a single member of a class (e.g. one 60 class - which must have looked amazing).

I must look out that list.

Yes, detailed answers above. A few random thoughts; the last time I saw a loco still in black'n'tan must have been about 1980. In 1976 / 7 / 8 when I did a lot of travelling on runabout tickets, they were plentiful especially on the 141 / 181 class. The 121's seemed to have been repainted earlier, and the A's anc C's definitely were, as top-notch expresses were all A and pairs of 121s / some 141s from 1972, in which year the "supertrain" livery first appeared. Cravens retained the original style of b'n't well into the '90s, when they had a white line applied below waist, and an orange one added along with the earlier white one above wondow level. BR vans were treated differently. They (uniquely) got the white line below the window level, but NOT the orange line above. Cravens never had orange roofs, but the 2nd hand BR Mk 2 coaches did, and the A/C Mk 2's while starting off with orange roofs (orig 1972 style) ended up once Mk 3's were in traffic, with black roofs. A, C, 101, 121, 141, 181 and 071 class locos all got the supertrain livery, but G and E classes didn't. The last G's went in '77, and the last E's in '86. While E's had at times the full black and tan, latterly all were plain black with white flashes above window level on the ends, and CIE roundel on sides. As stated elsewhere, not ALL 101's got the supertrain livery, but any in traffic late on did. The post-'87 "tippex" livery (b'n't with added white lines ("tippex", according to some wits in Inchicore at the time!)) was never on 101's - last had been withdrawmn in '78 after an IRRS tour. No C's ever got it either, as they had recently been replaced by DARTs. But the A's, 121, 141, 181 and 071 did.

In the early 90s a lighter shade of orange was introduced instead of the traditional "tan", which was an orange with a browny shade. IRRS journals of the early 60's consistently described the b'n't livery as "black and golden brown" or "black and brown"; this was somewhat inaccurate.

I have a silent colour cine clip of those things going out on a trial run somewhere.... must dig it out.

I caught them passing through Kildare one evening.

I would have thought that if ever there was to be a case for a RTR Irish steam loco, a UTA "Jeep" or a J15 must be the prime candidates, as they worked over most of their respective systems in later steam days, and and example of both has travelled even further in the modern preservation era. It is now possible to have a complete Whitehead RPSI Mk 2 rake, including dutch van; many examples of what's in the Dublin RPSI Heritage set (e.g. Park Royals), and a complete set of blue RPSI Cravens would also be possible in model form, along with (in theory) 141, 142, 146 and A39. Therefore a model of 4, 184 and 186 is very useable in modern image. For a modeller attempting late UTA / early NIR, or early 1960s CIE, grubby Jeeps and J15s would be all over the place, simmering on ballast or beet trains while a shiny new black'n'tan thing hurries past.