jhb171achill

The only colour pic I saw of an Inchicore "Cab" operation was of an ancient loco and an even more ancient ex-MGW six-wheeler. The loco was so dirty that Poirot couldn't have worked out what colour it had been painted - though I'd be 99.99% certain it was grey. The coach was in VERY dirty and faded initial CIE dark brunswick green with badly faded loight green bands above and below windows. I doubt if the "joined-on" locos / coach portion were ever green, as the last was scrapped about 1949, just a few years into pre-nationalisation CIE ownership. For a modeller, the loco would probably be 100% weathering paint!

A grey loco could well have shown faded lining in a scrap line, though I doubt in traffic. CBSCR engines were originally green, apparently of an olive shade, with quite elaborate yellow lining.

Name and number plates were indeed removed for economy - though I doubt if they got the price of a dozen eggs as a result of recycling the scrap!

If you are ever in Clifden, the six-wheel coach under tarpaulin there in the Station House Hotel car park shows glimpses of both CIE and GSR lining.

That carriage looks like a Bredin-origin one to me - if so, it's 1935 rather than 1937 design, i would guess.

No cravings in those cravens - your man at the start is puffing away!

Seems odd now, doesn't it! Note one of the later 4 wheeled heating vans still in use on the train headed by a 141... and red "buffer beams" still on the brand new DARTs!

Me loyalties WELL divided this Sunday. Dublin -v- Mayo; I'll have a blue shirt though, as will Mrs Woman, who is not a Dubliner at all..... C'mon ye boys in blue!

If it was anyone else playing Mayo, I'd be shouting me head off for Mayo................. see ye in the North Star before the match, and in the Cusack during it!

:tumbsup: :) =D=D=D :-bd

Haha sorry heirflick! Yes, with a dearth of published photos and periodicals until recent times, details of many aspects of the railways useful to modellers (and none more so than liveries) were not as well publicisdd as they might have been. In Britain, the tendency was for railway companies to paint all metalwork black, though exceptions existed. Here it was the other way round. Few companies did this, most preferrring all over grey - of various shades - and brown, or pre 1925 on some lines, black or almost-black grey, all over.

Having said that, many wagons were also infrequent visitors to paint shops, and the paintwork would become very heavily faded and weathered, so nondescript brake dust mixed with dirt would be a good "weathering livery" on some black chassis! Look even at modern IE freight stock - if you can find any which aren't plastered with graffiti, or even find any at all! They will show signs of the same - a nondescript dirty colour with a rusty brown tint (from brake dust).

Another addition.... with money being even more scarce in the 30's than it is now, and less importance given to instant "corporate branding", repainting was generally done when something needed to be painted, not when it changed owner. Thus, especially with goods and departmental stock, pre 1925 amalgamation liveries were to be seen until at least the mid thirties, with wagons bearing faded "D S E R", "G S W R" or "M G W R" lettering on them cropping up all over the place. If you are modelling this, the DSER used lettering only slightly smaller than the GSR, but GSWR, CBSCR and MGWR wagon lettering was smaller, about one plank height usually. And while the wagons were generally painted the same colour all over, exhaust smoke from engines made the roofs dirty very quickly, indeed even diesel exhausts soon discoloured light grey or brown wagon's roofs in CIE days. A very newly painted wagon stuck out because of the clean grey or brown wheels, brakegear and roof.

Great info as always, a subject for your next book perhaps Railway liverys of Ireland.

Hahaha good thinking snapper! I've one on the go at the moment in which liveries will be commented on as always! (Liveries have always interested me; dunno why - they don't often interest all that many people... present company excepted of course.. but there ye go!)

I meant to add, by the way, with regard to wagon liveries, grey all over, NOT black metalwork, strapping or chassis. This is an error often made by modellers, like I did myself back in the day when I did a bit of modelling, and chassis off Triang Hornby things (inevitably black, as per BR where metalwork WAS black) were the norm....

Locomotives

With the exception of the three 800 class, all locomotives adopted the livery which the GSWR had used since about 1918; namely a very dark "battleship" grey which was spray painted over the entire locomotive, including the cab interior, motion, and between the frames, as if the engine had been driven through a sheep dip. The only relief was the red buffer beam, with ornate shaded number on it. Former GSWR engines were inherited like this, and continued thus, right into CIE days, and indeed all but a very few ended their days uncder CIE in grey.

Locomotives from other companies were gradually treated the same, with numberplates being replaced usually by standard GSWR pattern ones (a few exceptions, e.g. ex-Cork, Blackrock & Passage narrow gauge engines transferred to the C & L). Old liveries such as the elaborately lined MGWR and WLWR ones, disappeared. The numberplates were often painted over, but occasionally had the raised rim and lettering / numerals picked out by sanding them down, i.e. bare metal, other times by painting them. Eye witnesses (several of whom I have known) noted this painting of numberplates was sometimes a lighter grey or a creamy colour (possibly off white), but more usually bare metal. Numberplate background was the same overall battleship grey.

describe locos fresh out of the paint shop as having a slight bluish hue, something to be seen on RPSI No. 186 when very clean, or when initially painted thus at Whitehead. In use, after a while in traffic and many "cleanings" with oily rags, locos began to look much darker, almost black. A close look, though, showed they were not black.

The three 800s were a lightish green, much lighter than the later green as seen on 800 in Cultra museum. It also had a distinct bluish tint, and the recently releasec scale model of it advertised on these boards has captured this perfectly. Lining was light yellow and black and number and name plates had edges and numerals polished, with dark blue backgrounds and red buffer beams. Bear in mind, incidentally, that 800 in Cultra has CIE green, but GSR markings, if ever photographing it for modelling purposes.

GSR carriages initially continued the GSWR tradition of a very dark maroon, so dark it looked brownish; this was known as "crimson lake". The exact shade may be seen on ex-GSW coaches 836 and 1097 at Downpatrick; 836 also having accurate GSWR lining, crests and lettering. Coaches of other companies gradually got this colour as well, with GSR coats of arms and large "1", or "3" numerals on carriage doors to indicate class. Lining was gold. By the mid 1920s an experimental livery was tried on corridor coaches on the Cork line. This was a chocolate brown up to lower waist panel level, with cream above and grey roofs. The cream had a thin black line seperating it from the brown, and two black lines just above the window level, and just below cantrail. Crests and numerals were the same as before. This livery was gradually extended to more corridor and bogie coaches, but was never used on six wheel stock with the exception of a very small number of vans (probably treated thus for ioperating on Cork line, but one at least was photographed bringing up the rear of a branch line train in Mayo). Nor was it ever used on the narrow gauge, and many secondary bogie coaches remained in the dark lake colour.

When the "steels" (the first steel sided coaches, often known as "Bredins") were intorduced in 1935, they were painted a much lighter shade of maroon, almost idenitical to that used by the LMS NCC / LMS in GB, all over. Again, the same numerals and crests were applied to the sides, and the lining was also like that of the LMS - a black line edged in yellow at waist level, and two thin yellow lines above windows and below cantrail. Some lowly branch line carriages, most narrow gauge stock, and things like horse boxes were unlined. A very small number of very old passenger carriages even then used as emergency accommodation only, has the letters "G S" instead of the crest, and no lining, same as on horse boxes.

Newly painted brown and cream coaches were in evidence up to about 1933/4, but after the late 30s the new LMS style maroon spread to most stock, before the advent of the earlier CIE green livery after 1945.

Inherited wagons were a mixed bag. The GSWR had painted its wagons dark grey or more usually, black, but companies like the DSER and MGWR used various shades of grey (yes, possibly even fifty shades of grey!). The GSWR had painted departmental stock a sand colour at one time, but this was discontinued. Gradually, a grey colour became standard across the board. The shade was darker than that later used by CIE, and probably very close again to LMS wagon grey. Narrow gauge wagons were also treated thus, though one interesting exception to the rule was that the Cavan & Leitrim had painted its ballast wagons yellow - just like a century later! The GSR continued this, using yellow 4 wheel open wagons with "G S" on the sides in smaller than usual letters. In common with most railway companies of the days, the owner's initials were prominent; large bold lettering "G S" was on the side of the wagons. The same size numbers were used on narrow gauge wagons, looking even bigger due to those wagon's small sizes.

Stations, buildings and signal cabins had dark green paint round doors and frames, with cream used on upper panels or round window panes.

Hope this helps.

Standard length for all GSWR horse boxes was 15ft6 or 16ft for all built prior to 1911 (9ft wheel base); 19ft length after that, with 12ft wheel base. Livery dark crimson lake initially, as on GSWR coach 836 at Downpatrick. The GSWR dimensions were fairly standard among other railway companies - all Irish horseboxes were short wheelbase / short length.

A pleasure Heirflick. I notice, looking at it again, the wagon has a painted departmental "A" series number 650A. The example shown in photos at the top of this post has a standard CIE wagon plate (and with a standard 5-digit number), but the above doesn't.... (unless there's a plate on the other side, or my eyesight is suffering from too many years of Guinness imbibing...!)

I should add that well into CIE days, little used vehicles best described at peripheral passenger stock (like horse boxes or very old secondary passenger brake vans) could be seen still in GSR maroon. By this stage it was badly faded and weatherd to become a browny salmony pink. There is a beautifully detailed layout somewhere of Dingle station - I am sure many here will have seen it at exhibitions - and the carriages on that are (accurately) reproduced like this, rather than in fresh maroon. That sort of colour, heavily weathered, would suit an old horse box operating in "green" CIE days too.

Yes, horse boxes were generally in passenger stock. In GSR days they were standard maroon, though without lining or crest; just shaded lettering "G S" and running number. In CIE days, plain dark green, without "eau-de-nil" lines, but with "flying snail" and number in that colour. Any lasting into black and tan era were never painted that colour, and indeed I doubt that even those that survived were used at all post-1962. One at least ended up in light wagon grey as a departmental vehicle; I saw it as such in Athlone about 1977. It had, by that stage, an orange surrounded "broken wheel" with white lettering. But it was not in use as a horse box by then. I saw another derelict somewhere in the mid 70s with flying snail on it and nothig else. It was in very badly faded green, impossible to tell whether it was pre-1955 darker brunswick green, or post-'55 lighter green as seen on RPSI (Dublin) and DCDR carriages of ex-CIE provenance. If you want to model a horsebox in traffic in a black'n'tan era layout, i would go for faded dark green with snails and numerals, no lining, heavily weathered chassis and roof of faded nondescript colour.

Anyone remembering them will recall livery details that differed from the norm. They were delivered (as seen above) with CIE roundels on the ends which were of slightly bigger diameter, and all white, instead of the usual one with a tan "broken wheel" surrounding white lettering. The shade of "tan" was also much browner than the norm. Against a set of Mk IIs the darker colour stood out. At first repainting they got the normal CIE standard of the day.

Looking at the model above, the cabside numerals are all white. I can't remember myself whether this was the case after delivery, though I suspect they were shaded in black. (Runs to look up old pics!). An EXCELLENT looking model, worthy runner up to the 141s.

The one in "Rails Through the West" was knocking about that part of the world carrying a digger in connection with the rebuilding of the R. Fergus bridge. I saw one somewhere about that time with a digger / JCB or something like that on it. Might have been in Limerick or else Inchicore, can't recall.

AAaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh Can ANYONE save us from what already seems light years of olympics, olympics and more olympics..........zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

I have to say, I never cease to be astounded at the quality of many modern scratch built layouts. This one leaves me speechless - that initial distant view of the station with the locos in it is fantastic. If this is a first effort....wow!! Words fail me - truly excellent.

W O WWWW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That is amazing! I'm starting to gather funds already....

A D17, as Des men tions, would be a lovely addition too, as would (and yes, i'm biased) an "Achill Bogie" D16!

That model of 800 is a credit to you Des - absolutely superb. Can't wait to see one running.

That looks spot on popeye..... Doubtless you've seen green G611 at the downs of patrick.... the handrails would be green also, though.

There is anecdotal (but not photographic) evidence that G611 was delivered as you have her above, but repainted black before entering traffic. G612-7 were delivered in black. I am not sure whether they were just black and white, or black, tan and white at first, but during the next 15 years or so until they were all withdrawn, the seven members of the G611 class had both variations.

The earlier three, G601-3, were delivered and ran in silver, then green as above - though at least one had the chassis green as well - possibly all three. Then they were painted black and white. None of these three ever had the tan on them.

That's got to be the best weathering jobs I've ever seen... the graffitie'd one makes me want to go out and find whoever is spraying them and tie him to the rails! And yet, it would look fantastic on any layout. Was there (I hope not!) a prototypical graffiti job as bad as that on a loco?

Yes, 186 was done by these morons. Disgusting.

Frank - about half, maybe just over half, were brown. Yes, the fitted / unfitted idea was the same here, though beware: from memory (open to correction),wagons started being fitted before the brown started, so it was possible (I am nearly sure) to get fitted grey ones. Those wagons left in grey by the early to mid 70s generally had CIE roundels, but there were more than a few faded "snails" about. Not so much on cattle trucks, though - more on standard covered "H" vans.

Beware also the modellers (and preservationists!) frequent error of picking chassis and body ironwork out in black! This was standard on most British companies, but you will see from photos it was almost unknown in Ireland at any time, right up to the end. If you ever saw a newly painted grey, or brown, CIE wagon - just like today wheels, bogies, buffers and couplings - everything - is "sheep dipped" in the body colour, roof and all. Chassis would of course get discoloured a brownish colour by brake dust, while roofs turned darker due to wear and tear and loco exhausts. Roofs should almost always, and certainly always in later years, be the same as the body colour

W O W!!!!! that is amazingly realistic!

Excellent work - keep 'er lit!

Very realistic!

There was a similar type of book published a couple of years ago about the greater Dublin area. All in black and white, but some amazing and long-forgotten pics. Can't remember title, but it was in the RPSI book stock on the tour. Re the Midlands, anything's possible!