jhb171achill

Hahah could be, Broithe! Years ago there used to be a rumour that whenever the GNR needed to paint a loco in Dundalk, they went to the nearest paint supplier and got the closest they had!

In reality, the myth couldn't have been further from the truth, as the GNR was very meticulous about paint shades being exact, and even employed a paint chemist / specialist, part of whose remit was to ensure the maintenance of such standards. I knew hom as a youth, alas, he is now in that Great Locomotive Shed in the sky; surrounded, no doubt, by endless blue 4.4.0s hauling varnished carriages around.................

Actually the first cable theft i've heard of it Ireland.... I wonder if there have been others. In South Africa a few years ago, a devasting blow was made to the preservation movement there when several stored ssteam locos in full working order were almost scrapped by thieves. They knew what they were at, and the locos were left with axles cut up, etc etc, boilers wrecked, beyond restoration. And over there it seems that scrap thieves are even armed at times.

DCDR is currently improving its fencing and has CCTV installed - this work was already in progress. Perhaps the inability of thieves to get into the newly securer Downpatrick station and area persuaded these scumbags to go almost 2 miles out the south line looking for what's stored out there.

I remembere standing in the yard with the railway's Publicity Officer a few years ago and as we stood there, scumbags threw stones and broke the window of a Wickham car. We chased them. It is very lucky indeed for them that we did not catch them!

Waffles, I can't help you with which brand of paint best matches it, but there were several shades of green! From inception of CIE to the mid 50s, the green was a dark brunswick green, with light green bands above and below window level. These light bands, as well as the "flying snail" logo, and numerals and numbers to denote class, were all lined in gold. The gold-lined "snail" can be seen now on the RPSI's loco 461.

From about 1955/6, the lighter green started to appear. This was accompanied again by the light green "snail" and numerals, but by now with just a single thin light green line along the waist line. It may be noted that from 1950, some dark green vehicles had variations. AEC railcars carried the thin waist line from the start, never the two broader bands. Narrow gauge coaches were exceptions too: while two Schull & Skib four wheelers got the full livery, Cavan & Leitrim coaches had a single light-coloured band above window level, with none below. West Clare coaches, including Tralee & Dingle imports and the railcars and trailers, had all over green with no lining at all. The railcars and trailers didn't have snails either. Some very old coaches in West Cork had strange variations, such as one bogie with all ov er dark green, no lining, and two white "snails"!

Plenty of room for manoevre for you! Hope that helps. The lighter shade of CIE green (post '55) can be seen on the RPSI's Dublin[-based wooden carriage set.

Scrap prices are quite high now, and this will encourage the sort of filth who carry out these raids. Hopefully the PSNI will be successful in tracking them down. As an aside, the whole scrap trade needs to be regulated. Currently you can walk into any scrapyard and they'll weigh what you have and pay you cash, or cheques that can be cashed. In an age where money-laundering detection is up there with health & safety for strictness in compliance, this is a very obvious loophole.

FrankS - mid sixties is an interesting era. You can have the very last of the green coaches up to '67, 121's in grey, the long-gone A, G and K class; B101's (Sulzers), coaches of laminate, Park Royal, Craven and Bredin origins, plus bogie mail coaches and 4 and 6 wheel passenger vans, cattle specials, mixed trains (a la Loughrea) and black or black'n'tan A and C class. No 071's - you'd have to await 1976 for that, although the beauty of a model railway layout is you can re-write history if you want!

I always thought a goods-based layout based on somewhere like Newcastle West or Tuam in the mid 60s would be fascinating... mine would be awash with black'n'tan 141s......

Heirflick, you'd be welcome. There were comments on these boards about a day for IRM-boarders at the DCDR when arrangements can be made to view / measure / photograph items of rolling stock including those not normally on display to the public, or in sidings in out of the way places. Obviously there are issues re walking on track on operating days etc, and other H & S issues, but at some stage in the summer I would offer my services to take a guided tour of the place to anyone interested, as I had intimated before. I can arrange transport for small numbers from the greater Dublin and Belfast areas with the co-operation of the DCDR's Operations Officer and a friend of mine, a DCDR member who lives in Dublin.

The idea would probabloy be (and I'm just jotting this down off the top'o'me'ead) a pick-up at Central Station and also somewhere in Dublin, with (seating permitting) a pick up in Drogheda / Dundalk / Newry areas, and on to Downpatrick. The cost would be sharing the petrol plus an all-day ticket on the railway, maybe €15-€20 a head?

Drop back in evening.

As I say, if something broadly along those lines appeals to a sufficient numb er of people, myself and the others mentioned above would be pleased to organise. Post a few thoughts here, if interested, about what you might like to see or do, and we'll see what looks feasible.

Correct, Eiretrains. I remember seeing wagons parked there in v early 1970s - prob dropped off from Mayo for further south, or vice versa.

many thanks, gentlemen!

Folks

Back in the days when cobbled motorways were in black and white, there was a firm called K's in ngland who made white metal kits of (for the day) an amazing array of locomotives - all, fairly obviously, of British origin; mostly pre-BR.

It occurred to me even then that many would lend themselves to kitbashing to make up Irish prototypes. I had one of their catalogues for years but must have discarded it a long time ago. Does anyone know anything about this firm, its kits, or what became of either?

Gents

Just shows you what there is out there. I am gathering unpublished colour stuff for future projects at the moment, and would be keen to hear from anyone with colour stuff post 1955 from anywhere. The next two projects I am working on are both broadly "west-based" but I plan more in the long run.

Among nice stuff I have recently is a shot of the Enterprise, consisting of a black'n'tan 141 hauling green coaches of ex-GN origin past Portadown about 1962... also there is one en route to me showing an ex-GN AEC set on an all-stops GVS - Portadown with the leading car in UTA green, wasp striped at front, the middle coach in new NIR maroon and grey, and the last car in the short-lived UTA blue and cream for the ex-GN line.....

Regarding the whereabouts of books, the RPSI bookstall will have a good selection on the tour in 2 weeks.

I wonder if a production run could be done of an AEC set, a 70 or 80 class set, or a NIR CAF set?

A party visit to Downpatrick would be fine, and I will assist in organising it if anyone's interested.

There are two ways of looking at it. One is just to savour it as an operating railway on a working day. The other is to take the view that the primary objective is photographing and measuring what's there for modelling purposes.

If the former, obviously it wouldn't be as easy for a model maker, as access to track and sidings would be somewhat restricted due to trains operating. On the other hand, there's nothiong quite like sitting in a first class compartment in a 1924-built GSWR coach heading out across the marshes towards Inch Abbey! I suppose that preferences can be expressed here.

It takes about two hours from Dublin. An hour to Newry, then an hour over the Mourne mountains. Alternatively, there is an hourly bus from Belfast in each direction for those coming from there.

If the prevailing opinion is that a non-operating day is preferred, I should be able to act as guide most Saturdays. If you prefer an operating day, there will be trains on both bank holidays, using either a G class or A class loco. Normal summer operations start mid June. For planning purposes, the timetable is:

Downpatrick 1400 1445 1530 1615 1700

Inch Abbey 1410 1455 1540 1625 1710

Inch Abbey 1420 1505 1550 1635 1720

Downpatrick 1430 1515 1600 1645 1730

In addition, empty stock movements leave Downpatrick at 1230, returning light engine at 1300 ex inch Abbey; also light engine (probably a G) leaving Downpatrick at 1740 to bring empty stock back from Inch.

There is also now the Carriage Gallery to look at. No. 90 is in there right now, along with several carriages. The TPO is in there at present.

Gareth - I'll be working on the RPSI May tour the whole time, if you're on that. I know several people here are planning to go on the Friday diesel run to Portrush anyway. And thanks for your comments which I have also relayed to Barry! We are hoping to get a follow-up to "Rails through the west" in about a year's time. This will also cover the "Black'n'Tan Era" and on up to the present day.

The Albert Quay terminus was but one of several little-known black'n'tan era survivors, with sometimes obscure goods workings. Crossmolina siding, Coolnamona, North City Mills, Castlemungret, Silvermines, and so on.... ten points for whoever gets a complete list!

Very good indeed. Is this the same person, I wonder, who has that G scale "C" class featured here a few days ago?

Heirflick, you'd be very welcome. I would say to anyone though, if you let us know before you arrive we can be better prepared to make your visit worthwhile. The TPO is in original condition and will remain that way. Internally, all fittings remain, though it has had temporary partitions added to allow use as a Grotto for a guy in a red suit who comes each December to the railway!

Externally it is in 1955-1961 lighter CIE green.

Wow! Selwyn Johnston (Headhunters / Enniskillen Railway Museum) would be VERY interested in that.

BosKonay, such a thing could well happen. The RPSI has enough carriages to make up a wooden / Park Royal / laminate rake in green - and in fact, most of its "heritage" set based in Dublin is already in the later post-1955 lighter green, snails and all. 461 is also in green with snail.

At Downpatrick,one of the current running set (brake genny 3223 of 1956) is in the later version of the dark green, snail an'all. Downpatrick also has four other bogie carriages, and two unrestored six wheelers, as well as one six wheeler being restored, and a TPO and din ing car - all of which could authentically wear CIE green of either shade.

That said, it is current DCDR policy to paint carriages as they would have been when new, i.e. GSWR livery for a coach of that company, and so on. That said, of the list above,many were new to CIE and therefore even with that policy will eventually be green.

A detail: one of the above is Park Royal 1944. Because of the ridge along the bodyside Park Royals didn't have the snail, and were always in the lighter green as they were only being built when it replaced the dark green.

I'll try to reply to all. First, to Hidden agenda and A class 007, many thanks for your comments. I will tell BC that you were asking for him. (I'm on phone to him tonight). Freight and Mallow-Waterford... yes, we have discussed both of these, as well as three other long term potential projects, though the main thing I'm trying to get finished now is one on Galway - Clifden. As far as freight is concerned, the follow up to "Rails Through the West", while not specifically aimed at freignt, will feature a lot of it 1965 - 1985.

Yes, trains, lines and stations WERE much better kept in those days; I remember an English enthusiast remarking to me once on a May RPSI 3-Day Tour about 1980 "You nevere ever seem to see a dirty loco in this country". This surprised me as I had assumed that British Rail would be the same, but apparently it was anything but. Moving on to Mallow and Waterford, Barry's collection doesn't really cover this route at all, though I would not rule that out for a future date, using other collections if I could get the right stuff, and the right locations.

Finally, to Loughrea. I never heard of double heading "G"'s and I doubt if it happened. It might have been tried as a one-off, as indeed it has been at Downpatrick, but it is not satisfactory and runs a great risk of broken couplings. I could imagine one towing another dead, running light, but that would hardly be a common occurrence. Mayner, you were right in saying one was regularly stabled in the shed at Loughrea, but there was rarely a goods train as such; the timetable provided for one mixed train and two passenger trains per day - a long standing "standard" on many branch oines to such an extent it can be taken as a standard type of operation for a typical fictitious Irish branch line layout based in any period from the start of railways to the branch line pogroms from the '50's to 1975.

Correspondents of mine, and my own observations on the only occasion I ever went by train to Loughrea, suggested that the spare G at Loughrea fulfilled three functions: (a) literally that, a spare loco. (b) Shunting. © The occasional "overload" goods, as allowed loads for G class locos were understandably small. When any heavy traffic was called for, e.g. a fair day cattle trains, what usually happened was that an A or C came in. I have seen a single pic, and only quite recently, of a 141 with a 2-coach passenger train in Loughrea. The one time I went, in the closing days of October 1975, the train was a re-engined "C" class and the usual single coach. The upholstery in it was the then-current mock-leather light brown plastic bus seat type, and someone had written on one of the seats in black biro "Farewell to the Dunsandle Express".

Amazing. I always thought if I ever got time, a 00 gauge West Cork layout would be a dream come true, but a G scale West Cork in the garden.... wow. Live steam Bandon tanks, ex-MGWR 0.6.0 tank engines, No. 90, C class diesels, AEC railcars and elderly 50ft bogie coaches and six-wheelers, all against a backdrop of beet wagons in sidings......

Seamus - very many thanks, and I will endeavour to live up to future expectations! Barry and I will be doing one follow up to this, and there are a few more ideas in the pipeline, several involving (I agree) the golden age of black'n'tan....

My own earliest forays out into the main network away from base, as it were, would have been in those now far-off days....

One for the livery / weathering specialists to model - a GNR covered van (as I once saw in Rock St, Tralee), in CIE grey livery, CIE broken wheel on it, and a standard cast numberplate with "N" after the number... and a large "G N" beginning to show clearly through well worn CIE grey paint....

I would point out that arangements can be made to view / measure / photograph locos and stock at Downpatrick by prior arrangement. For those who haven't been, the following can be seen there, and in positions to be given a once-over by modellers:

Locos: A, E, G, B141, O & K steam, RPSI No. 3, and GSWR No.90.

Railcars: NIR's BREL railbus, RB3.

Coaches: CIE park Royal, TPO, 24xx series dining car, laminate brake standard, laminate brake genny, BR genny van. Plus GSWR high and low roofed coaches, the sole surviving 70 class driving trailer, BCDR coaches of three types. There is other stock there but not fit to be examined, e.g. items shrink wrapped in plastic sheet pending restoration.

Among the wagons, NCC "Brown Vans", NCC goods brake, NCC open wagons, a tank wagon and a breakdown crane.

I hope this is of use to anyone modelling any of the above.

John, that's superb stuff as always - you must have a VAST (and fascinating) collection now.

The RPSI's Charlie Friel is also an expert (probably the leading one) on all matters GNR. He has done many talks on such things, most recently a fascinating one in Belfast about Portadown and environs. Check out the RPSI's annual "winter meeting" season for monthly meetings in Belfast. The next lot will start probably in September.

Paddy was telling a great story yesterday. When he was in York road looking at the 111's he was getting a sample of paint for the forthcoming model when he asked for the NIR blue the reply he got from the member of staff in the paint shop was. What shade are you after as there are no two the same its just what ever shade comes out of the tin after we mix it

That tale was also often told of Dundalk Works! However, evidence on the ground indicates that neither of NIR's two blue colours, nor GNR blue, was anything like as unreliably consistent as such a policy would probably result in...

As well as that, the infrequent repaints of these locos and the small numbers of them makes any livery change almost a unique one! (e.g. (8)113).