jhb171achill

Ha! As soon as O & K No. 1 reappears at Downpatrick, someone has to post up its new livery before it's even painted!!! :-)

Correct, Mayner; though grey was in fact the livery colour all along - albeit applied to not only the main parts of the loco, but also the smokebox, chimney, inside frames, inside cab and tender, roof inside and out, etc, etc; in fact, the only non-grey bit was the buffer beams. Cork did indeed paint some locos as you describe, probably no more than 2 or 3 though, but including at least one J15. Cork also painted one or two locos all-black, and Limerick may also have done.

The "snail" on tenders was a very faint green called "eau-de-nil" - same as the pale green applied to snails (and broad lining) on buses and carriages. However the cabside number was a dark cream colour, almost pale yellow.

In GSR days, when almost every loco had a standard Inchicore cabside numbeplate, the raised edges and numerals on these were usually just all painted over grey, but quite often they were rubbed smooth to bare metal, as on RPSI's 186. In CIE days, most plates were taken off and numerals painted, but quite a few locos entered the 1950s with the plates intact. By this stage, another variation was added - either the number only, or the number and rim, painted with the same pale yellow used on larger painted numerals. I have seen evidence of at least two locos which had the numbers on retained plates painted what looks like white; in one case number only, in the other number and rim.

If you are modelling a specific loco, if you can find a photo of what variation it had, all the better. If you can't, then others are unlikely to either, so you can paint the whole engine tartan and nobody can tell you off! :-)

Hope all of this helps.

No GSR / CIE engine ever ran only in green or black except the 800 class, which were always green. All GSWR locos started being painted battleship grey all over about 1918, replacing the earlier lined black livery. When the GSR was born in 1925, the all over grey spread to every other loco they had from other companies, with the exception mentioned. CIE continued this unique but singularly dull livery, altering it only by gradually replacing the cast number plates on locomotives with painted numbers, and the addition of "flying snails" to most tender engines, but no tank engines.

Towards the end of steam, from about 1955 onwards (but NOT before), a small number of locomotives were painted black, and at least one J15 received the grey but with a black smokebox; this livery variation came from Cork shed, I believe, or possibly Limerick works.

Woolwich locos were all grey until some time about 1950 when most became green, but not all. One was repainted (like the model) in lined black. This was specially done for the Cork - Mallow - Rosslare express. Others were grey - but modellers can bear in mind that the grey varied occasionally in shade, and a few engines over the years looked almost black, especially after a period of being cleaned with oily rags. RPSI's 186 was painted grey some years ago. At the time, a number of people saw her close up, who would also have seen newly painted locos in Inchicore in the past, and their verdict was that the RPSI shade was exactly right. I think at least one other Woolwich was plain black, but I'd have to check.

Dirty engines could look black too. I do have a list of CIE locomotives somewhere which received actual black paint, but there were only (from memory) at best a couple of dozen; I had a look just now but can't put my hand to it. I'll post the list here when I can.

From memory, no class ALL received black - it was just odd locos here and there. I think there was black on at least one or two of the following: Bandon tanks, 400 class, Woolwichs, and i think a 60-class 4.4.0. No J15s were ever black, though one (as mentioned) had a black smokebox, though grey elsewhere.

The CIE green was applied in the same way - to whatever odd locos came in and out of the works, and often just a single member of a class (e.g. one 60 class - which must have looked amazing).

I must look out that list.

Yes, detailed answers above. A few random thoughts; the last time I saw a loco still in black'n'tan must have been about 1980. In 1976 / 7 / 8 when I did a lot of travelling on runabout tickets, they were plentiful especially on the 141 / 181 class. The 121's seemed to have been repainted earlier, and the A's anc C's definitely were, as top-notch expresses were all A and pairs of 121s / some 141s from 1972, in which year the "supertrain" livery first appeared. Cravens retained the original style of b'n't well into the '90s, when they had a white line applied below waist, and an orange one added along with the earlier white one above wondow level. BR vans were treated differently. They (uniquely) got the white line below the window level, but NOT the orange line above. Cravens never had orange roofs, but the 2nd hand BR Mk 2 coaches did, and the A/C Mk 2's while starting off with orange roofs (orig 1972 style) ended up once Mk 3's were in traffic, with black roofs. A, C, 101, 121, 141, 181 and 071 class locos all got the supertrain livery, but G and E classes didn't. The last G's went in '77, and the last E's in '86. While E's had at times the full black and tan, latterly all were plain black with white flashes above window level on the ends, and CIE roundel on sides. As stated elsewhere, not ALL 101's got the supertrain livery, but any in traffic late on did. The post-'87 "tippex" livery (b'n't with added white lines ("tippex", according to some wits in Inchicore at the time!)) was never on 101's - last had been withdrawmn in '78 after an IRRS tour. No C's ever got it either, as they had recently been replaced by DARTs. But the A's, 121, 141, 181 and 071 did.

In the early 90s a lighter shade of orange was introduced instead of the traditional "tan", which was an orange with a browny shade. IRRS journals of the early 60's consistently described the b'n't livery as "black and golden brown" or "black and brown"; this was somewhat inaccurate.

I have a silent colour cine clip of those things going out on a trial run somewhere.... must dig it out.

I caught them passing through Kildare one evening.

I would have thought that if ever there was to be a case for a RTR Irish steam loco, a UTA "Jeep" or a J15 must be the prime candidates, as they worked over most of their respective systems in later steam days, and and example of both has travelled even further in the modern preservation era. It is now possible to have a complete Whitehead RPSI Mk 2 rake, including dutch van; many examples of what's in the Dublin RPSI Heritage set (e.g. Park Royals), and a complete set of blue RPSI Cravens would also be possible in model form, along with (in theory) 141, 142, 146 and A39. Therefore a model of 4, 184 and 186 is very useable in modern image. For a modeller attempting late UTA / early NIR, or early 1960s CIE, grubby Jeeps and J15s would be all over the place, simmering on ballast or beet trains while a shiny new black'n'tan thing hurries past.

Would love to have been there..... to see Barcelon come in second..haha!! 2 buddies of mine went. they haven't been heard of since - still celebrating... hail hail

Indeed, Lough Erne - you jogged my memory on that. 98 was latterly (I think) 595 or 525 or something like that... it was numbered thus until it collapsed, as it had remained in its last NIR livery while at Whitehead. The all-over maroon had faded to an all-over salmony pink! Pity - but it suffered from post-war GNR disease: poor quality wood used in its framework superstructure. All of those few surviving ex-GNR coaches initially acquired by the RPSI fell apart like that, except No. 9 - and it survived to the present day on account of having been extensively rebuilt at Whitehead in the 90s.

The Whitehead livery is based on the idea that most carriages in the twilight era of steam were dark green: the pre-'55 CIE green (albeit relieved by lighter green lines) and the UTA green 1948-66. The Whitehead set is based on UTA livery - more or less the same green, and with lining similar to, but not the same as the UTA version. The lettering on RPSI stock is also somewhat more ornate than that used by the UTA. The blue and yellow used on Cravens in the Dublin area is a new livery designed to give the Dublin set a totally new, and easily identifiable look. As Garfield says, IE are not keen (in some quarters) on any livery which might be mistaken for their ownership. So black'n'tan, while technically the only correct livery for cravens, is better avoided just at the moment. The RPSI DUblin set is, of course, in authentic 1955-62 CIE lighter green (apart from one carriage in a reddish colour with flying snails - not authentic livery).

In preservation, there is an old adage that the volunteer is the one with the paintbrush! As one who cut my teeth painting RPSI carriages in the late 70s, outdoors with no H & S, no roof, no hi-vis etc etc etc I was told that back then... though had I painted a day glo tartan livery on an NCC third, I am sure someone would have had a quiet word with me....

Horsetan. the RPSI had 525 and 727, as well as existing No. 9 in the Dublin set - the last of them.

525 was a brake coach like 114, and 727 was a full open - in fact, it lasted as a 70 class intermediate until about 1980, making it the last GNR coach in service. GNR coaches of post war vintage very built with very poor quality wood, and rotted prolifically. 727 and 595 literally fell apart while awaiting restoration at Whitehead some years ago. 114 still exists, but would not be in anything like runnable condition - she would need a 100% rebuild. She had been used as a crew coach well into the 1990s on northern based trips and the May Tour.

No. 9 - or 1909 as it is now known, was very rotten and was completely structurally rebuilt at Whitehead in the early '90s.

There was another GNR coach - a rare brake first of about 1940 origin - which was used as a coal-carrying and crew coach on most of the Society's early tours. (It wasn't a K15, obviously!). This coach was also prone to body rot and was scrapped years ago.

Surviving GNR coaches are the RPSI's Dublin vintage set diner No. 88, and of course the Director's Saloon, No. 50, at Whitehead. At Downpatrick, the body of a six wheel GNR coach sits on a matching 30ft chassis of MGWR origin, awaiting eventual restoration. It is one of six that were acquired second hand by the BCDR from the GNR in the 1920s, but saw little use on the BCDR before being withdrawn after only a few years and the body sold off locally.

Since this thread is about liveries... the coaches referred to above include 114 - the last coach surviving in GNR brown livery. This bypassed CIE green and was repainted directly from GNR livery to black and tan about 1966. CIE used it a few years more. 595 ended its days in NIR all-over maroon with waist level light grey line. this livery was applied briefly to what clapped out ex-UTA stock was retained for loco hauled excursion use. This stock briefly included some old de-engined railcar stock too. 727 ended up with the NIR livery of maroon and blue. Diner 88 has had many liveries. Starting in GNR scumble, later GNR brown, then GNR blue and cream, UTA green, NIR maroon and grey, then it entered RPSI ownership. It has carried (in RPSI times) a non authentic maroon livery, GNR blue and cream, and latterly CIE post-1955 green (which actually suits it very well). While 88 was never owned by CIE, some 50% of GNR coaching stock, including other catering vehicles, was.

Nice original idea - but with printed sides I'd expect a price of €40, not €400.... sorry....

In case anyone's interested, the colour in the photo looks brownish, but the actual containers were the then standard CIE container orange colour. The wagons were just standard 4w flats, painted brown, but looking like the livery was a mix of brake dust and rust, as on Tara wagons today. And, yes, they were for grain.

What a STUNNING model! (less white above front windows though!) I remember the last run on an IRRS trip with 106 back in (I think?) 1977 / 8..... never saw them on their stamping ground, but a Waterford - Mallow based layout would look well with a few...

Just shows the gems that IRRS meetings throw up! I am rarely in Dublin on Thursday nights but hopefully I will be able to get to some of these meetings in the future. I would very strongly recommend membership of the IRRS to modellers, as they have much useful information in there.

There will be steam trains on the Downpatrick & Co Down Railway on 1st January, if that would be any interest if you are in / around the north. It's not that far from Cultra (Ulster Folk and Transport Museum... which is excellent).

On re-reading the above, please forgive my typos!

I norm;aly spel quiet. w3ell.

Thanks for comments re liveries, folks. In answer to:

"......Except the converted parcels/brake van that became the iconic weedsprayer wagon. I assume Edgar Craven Bredin was the same engineer, along with Beaumont, responsible for both iconic carriage design types associated with his name?....."

Yes. H J A Beaumont joined Inchicore in 1899 as a trainee draughtsman in the old drawing office there and by the time Edgar Bredin came along he was the senior one, thus it was to him that Bredin turned when he wanted a shape put on his plans. Info on HJAB is surprisingly sparse. He was an extremely private man who kept himself to himself and his family. In family ownership, nothing whatsoever has survived of his... and most of his drawings of the 800 class locos was destroyed in a clear out at the works in the early 1960s.

Bredin and HJAB were involved with the second batc h of Drumm trains and numerous rebuilds of both locos and carriages, as well as the 800 class and the "Bredin" coaches.

The coaches were the first steel-skinned coaches in Ireland, though the GNR(I) were developing their own at the same time. To this end, HJAB made several visits to Dundalk Works, and his counterparts came to Inchicore to review progress. There were two versions: side corridor main line stock and centre aisle suburban stock with no end gangways at first, though these were later added. With all having gangways eventually, the suburban ones were not at all uncommon on the main lines. Many were still in use on CIE well into the 1970s. The RPSI had three (or pissib ly four; memory lets me down here), all but one of which suffered fatal damage in a fire at Mullingar some years ago, where one was torched, and in the late 90s another 2 were among 5 or 6 coaches awaiting restoration at Whitehead which were destroyed in a vandal-related fire. (Pity the vandals weren't in them).

The sole remaining complete one is currently undergoing restoration by the RPSI and will hopefully return to main line service. I think, as someone said, there is a non-operational one at Dromod. If so, it is likely to be 1900, the solitary Bredin all-first.

Bredin / HJAB also designed the steel-panelled TPOs, post office sorting vans and full brakes which were to be seen in use well into CIE period. The very last CIE-built full brakes were built to an essentially Bredin design in the late 50s, by which time both Bredin and HJAB were no longer in the railway. (HJAB, in fact, had died in 1951).

Ah! The dreaded Saxons are kidnapping Henry Shefflin to play for Man U. That's why the sub is in reverse.

Looks fantastic... wonder if it's possible to get the NIR logs and numerals used on these? I seem to remember someone did those rub-on transfers at one time....

Looks absolutely stunning!

I take the point that repaints of BR models are not quite the real thing, but I'd say an exact replica would end up being much dearer in the shops. The windows show up the BR ancestry more than anything else - they have round corners, whereas AECs had much squarer corners. In my own modellin g days, none of the RTR stuff was available so one had to make do with one's own efforts, or a repainted BR Mk 1 for just about anything!

The only thing I would add - and please accept as very constructive criticism, as the overall effect is excellent - is that the blue looks more like GNR loco blue than railcar blue. The railcars had a navy blue shade, while loco blue is best seen at Whitehead on 171 and 85. Painting the ends of carriages in the bodyside livery was much more a BR thing than the product of anything over here (like black wagon chassis and ironwork). With the exception of some (but not all) non-corridor stock, CIE and UTA painted carriages black on the ends, irrespective of side livery. GNR railcars and loco hauled stock had blue and cream on the ends usually (I have seen phots of black on ends in this livery too, though I can't recall whether it was railcars or loco hauled stock...).. The flying snail is the wrong way round on the green cars too.... Anyway; that's my tuppence half'penny worth.... great model, long overdue, and great credit to Silverfox. Maybe a 70 class next? (Runs and hides....)

A pleasure, weshty!

Correct, Horsetan. And in the ten or fifteen years post-independence (and other times since!) Ireland was not a wealthy country as we know!

Yes. We buried Mike on Saturday last; a true gentleman as mentioned and a good friend to all involved in the DCDR. RIP, Mike; we'll keep 'er lit for you!

The Belfast factory was Eastwoods, now itself long gone. CIE and the UTA scrapped locos in Belfast, Dundalk and Dublin; Mullingar also, and possibly at other locations. Both did a lot of scrapping themselves.