hexagon789

12 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

Recent posts have touched on all sorts of matters related to the much-awaited grey 121s appearing, plus the rest of them; what train consists are realistic, tin vans, livery mixtures, what ran with what, good stock, and the big issue of the sheer variety of what was to be seen on the railway in the 1960-70 period, or - to put it another way - into what environment did grey 121s appear.

This applies, of course, equally to the forthcoming silver, green, black, and black'n'tan "A" class - and for those who have the likes of their Silverfox cousins, B101, "G" and "C" classes.

The first thing - for modellers who have had fewer birthdays (and decades!) than I, is that the entire railway system changed more in the early 1970s than even at the end of steam. Block trains of uniform stock only then appeared and became the norm; a concept totally unknown when the first 121s roared up to Dundalk with a good train (they worked goods before they ever worked passenger!). Sidings and small stations dramatically reduced and eventually vanished. In both goods and passenger trains, barely two vehicles were alike, such was the huge variety of stock.

Unlike today, when each type of train has different couplings, ALL railway vehicles, north, south, east and west, used exactly the same couplings, so the idea of incompatibility between couplings simply didn't exist. At all.

If a modeller had limitless skill, limitless time, limitless budget and limitless imagination, it would still be a hard ask to reproduce this period in all its detail. So I thought I'd fish out a few more pics as well as the ones I posted during the lockdown, but with more of an emphasis on the 1960s - the period when the "grey'n'green" era would morph into the "black'n'tan" era. My earliest railway memories belong to this time, and thus is my preferred period, but the real point is that opinion or not, this was the most varied time in the railway - arguably ever.

Many books are full of photos of the time, and I would recommend detailed perusal of photos in them all - always look what's in the background! 

To try to cut through a mass of information for modellers who get the grey or black'n'tan 121s, and who get the pre-"supertrain" liveries on the IRM "A"s, a few simple broad pointers, first - exceptions existed, but this gives the broad gist:

 

Timeline

1960    "A" and B101 classes dominate most main line goods train, with AEC railcars dominating most passenger trains, though loco-hauled too. Some steam still, mostly on branches like the North Wexford, Ardee, Ballaghaderreen, Ballinrobe, Kenmare, and Loughrea. Almost no regular steam anywhere else, though ballast and (seasonally) beet brings them out of the woodwork. They almost all look extremely run-down. Many six-wheel carriages are still in use - the passenger brakes being mostly GSWR, and the passenger-carrying ones mostly Midland. The vast majority of these six-wheelers are in Cork, and used on Cobh commuter trains at rush hour, and summer Youghal excursions. All goods trains are loose-coupled, and shunting and spare locos are based all over the place, with many steam sheds still being open to cater for them. All wagons are grey, without any exceptions, all passenger stock is green, except for a small few still not repainted from the short-lived "silver" (which is now filthy nondescript grey), and around the former-GNR lines, and the DSER, a few ex-GNR coaches still in either brown or dark blue and cream.

Everything has guard's vans. There is no such thing as air-braking, nor will there be for many years. All goods train are loose-coupled, so must have a goods brake at the end, unless it's maybe a single goods wagon tacked onto the back of a passenger train, as sometimes happened. All passenger trains will have a guard's coach, almost always a six-wheel passenger brake of GSWR parentage, or a modern "tin van".

 

1961    121s appear. The grey Murphy ones! They will retain this livery for a few years, with repaints to black'n'tan between 1964/5 and about 1968. So, a clean 121 will have green coaches and loose-coupled wagons with guard's van. Other diesels are a mixture of either silver or green.

 

1962    Towards the end of the year, a decision is taken to bring in the black'n'tan livery, which has been applied to a few coaches.

 

1963    The 141s start entering traffic, and a major drive appears to take place to repaint carriages in black'n'tan. The last passenger-carrying six-wheelers are withdrawn in Cork in the spring, leaving about six or seven full-brake six wheel coaches in the new livery; the last of these will survive until 1968/9 on the Galway line.

Working steam comes to an end after 129 years. By this stage, steam working has actually become extremely rare, with the few branchlines where it eked out its last days now closed or made goods-only. B101, E, A & C class locos start being painted black'n'tan; after a while, some will be repainted all-black, and after that some - but not all - of the A & C classes will get the yellow patches. The new "Craven" coaches appear; at first, and for a good few years, they will only be seen on main lines. Thus, laminates and Park Royals, plus still a few wooden bogies and Bredins, provide the stock for the majority of trains, and all secondary services.

 

1964/5   By now, something over half of the passenger stock is in the new livery, the rest green; thus, a grey 121 will need at least SOME green carriages! Many tin vans retain increasingly shoddy "silver", others are green, and others again in BnT. All good remains loose-coupled, and the "palvans" are introduced.

 

1967     The 181s appear. By now, the very first cement bubbles do too - they run a few at a time in ordinary goods trains, or as a set - but not in braked block trains - thus, a guard's van is necessary with the initial (grey) ones (as it is with beet trains!). Talking of which, open wagons are now about two-thirds "Bullied" corrugated types, with the rest wooden-sided traditional ones, mostly of 1940s Inchicore construction.

 

1969/70  It's beginning to look more modern now. The 4-wheel "back-to-backs", containers, and the longer-wheelbase four wheel flats are appearing. The re-engining programme is making B201s out of the "C" class, and AxxR out of the "A" class, with the all-black loco livery finally disappearing in favour of everything being variations (high and low waistband) of black'n'tan. The new NIR "Enterprise" heralds the first example of British-outline standard trains of a same type of coach. The bubbles are being repainted orange body and grey chassis, with the newest ones delivered that way, and containers are becoming more common. The die is cast; in only 2 years' time, we'll have the Mk 2s and "supertrains".

The wagons start being repainted brown. By the end of loose-coupled trains in 1976, about two thirds were brown, the rest still grey, with even a tiny few still with flying snails.

BR and Dutch vans start appearing; now, the tin vans start retiring. The last will still be in use on Ballina - Limerick - Rosslare in 1976/7. But for the 1960s they really ARE needed!

 

Liveries

Apart from details mentioned above, the simplest summary would be:

A, C, B101:  Silver new, repaints into green from 1958, with the last few C's entering traffic green.

121: Grey and yellow at start - first to be black'n'tan 1964 or 5; last about 1968/9.

141 / 181: Black'n'tan from new. 1412s have no CIE badge when delivered (the "roundel" has not yet been invented!) but the 181s do, and at that stage they start putting them on the 141s too.

Oddballs: The three E401s / G601s - silver, green, black. Never black'n'tan. The seven G611s - black or black'n'tan always, never green. E421s - black or black'n'tan always. The "K" class - GNR navy, then CIE green, then all black.

Carriages:

Sixwheelers - all green to the end (1963) except for the half dozen full brakes which stayed on during the 60s - they got black'n'tan by 1964.

Wooden carriages - those in traffic got black'n'tan by 1968 or were scrapped.

Bredins, Park Royals, all the many types of laminates, Cravens - all black'n'tan. First ones 1963, last green ones about 1967.

Wagons:

Grey. Nothing brown at all until 1970s, thus long after grey 121s were black'n'tan. 

 

Train Consists

Now, these are TYPICAL: by NO means exhaustive, as readers will appreciate!

Passenger trains

Main line: 121, Crossley "A" or 141, maybe nine carriages plus vans: 

Tin van

Laminate

Craven

Laminate

Park Royal

Craven

Craven

Bredin

Laminate

Tin heating van

Mail van extra? Bogie of GSR or early CIE origin.

Secondary or branch line:

Two to five coaches plus tin van. Coaches will be old wooden bogies, laminates, Park Royals occasionally, or laminates of various types. Greater number of still-green stock! Loco - "C", 121 or 141.

Goods:

Mostly "A" class, green or black. Old guard's vans gone by about 1964, with standard CIE 20T and 30T types all over the place. Last GNR ones scrapped, not that CIE ever used them much!

While many modern layouts have the various types of modern bright yellow maintenance train consists, in the 1960s all PW and maintenance stuff was - you guessed it - grey! BUT - sadly - instead of a train of pristine HOBS, I've yet to see modelled that all-too-familiar sight coming out of a junction in the 1960s - a dirty "C" class with the LIFTING train from a closed branch:

The following from a large amount of new material that I am going through, and will need a decent quality scanner and printer for:

(All pics P Dillon Collection)

It is THIS world into which the brand new grey 121 class "yanks" appeared. How very different from the world they left about fifteen years ago.

The very last photo shows a scene so rare, it may be unique. A NEWLY-PAINTED grey J15 in Cork - one of the last few steam engines painted, and which would be scrapped only months later, with a GSWR bogie in quite new black'n'tan. The first black'n'tan stock appeared only a year or so before the last steam engine was withdrawn. In this instance, the steam engine is on shunting duties. See how clean "new" grey paint looked!

Excellent and informative post as ever jhb. My one and only piece of Irish railway memorabilia from the 1960s, is a 1962 timetable.

In it there are a handful of named trains (3 in all), given 1962 is pre-Cravens I wondered what sort of stock both motive power and carriages one should expect to see on the Sláinte, Fáilte and Cú na Mara of this period or were these all railcars?

While I don't model this early, I still find it a fascinating period across Europe - so much change and innovation, arguably more so than any other single decade.

13 hours ago, Rob said:

Very interesting read!     Unusual in the main pic to have the Restaurant directly behind the loco.

Must have been for the publicity shot as it was never like that in actual service that l saw.

Yes, it is a publicity shot, it also features in the October 1984 IRRS Journal (I think, it might have been June) in the news section, it was a press run from before the coaches entered revenue service formed of EGV+4 Standards+Diner iirc.

Only sets sets were in traffic at this point, and while the author writes that normal formation was to be EGV+Diner+8 Standards, the sets at this point were one eight-piece and one seven-piece both with "Firsts" in the formation.

Indeed as can be seen in the article, the author's carriage was none other than the infamous "1st" 7140!

Thought this might be of interest, a short article written in August 1984 giving first impressions on the then almost brand-new CIÉ MkIII coaches:

1 hour ago, Buz said:

From what I can find so far the Loughrea (spelling) branch closed in 1975 so I would imagine it will more likely be the old style white speed boards given the orignal very light construction of the line.

Upgrade that's why the possible need for the thirty  five board some work was done something about rail cars I think?.

It looks I have had my first detail bum steer by the look of it,. I really need to find a book or two on Irish railways with some good information in it.

While on signage any idea when the brakes board came in and sizes

regards John

 

Some digging produced the following, 

1972 working timetable gives a 30mph linespeed on the branch.

This photo from just before closure shows a 25mph restriction sign in the old style at the exit from Loughrea station.

On 9/1/2020 at 9:41 AM, Warbonnet said:

It rings a bell that NIR wanted 141s but had to 'buy British' and ended up with Hunslets instead, but not sure how true that was. 

Quite possibly, but would that have solved the power issue on the Enterprise? Given the 1,350hp Hunslets were felt to be rather underpowered for even six-coach loads singly.

(Even accounting for the losses incurred by the HEP/ETH output of a Hunslet a 950hp 141 doesn't quite have the same grunt.)

3 hours ago, Buz said:

Hi all

Does any one produce mile pegs and speed restriction signs in the low end MPH

I am going to need some for my proposed Dunsandle layout from  0 to 25 MPH in 5mph jumps and for the express snail possibly 35 MPH "such reckless speed"

I have found a picture showing a yellow plate with black numbers but no dimensions for the signs or color of twhat he back white ??

If I have to make them  I figure "N" scale rail post ( I still have some "N" scale rail somewhere) and paper sign hardened with super- glue should do it to produce a resilient sign.

But have no idea how big the sign plate should be in 4mm scale or how high above rail height it should be.

regards John

What era? The older style were white rectangles with black figures, the more modern yellow hexagon with black figures date from about the 1960s and the older style lasted decades really only being replaced if speeds were upgraded/downgraded.

13 hours ago, spudfan said:

Story goes that when the 071 class were introduced here British Rail were very impressed with the reliabilty and day to day performance of the class. So much so that they wanted to purchase them for UK operations. Seems politics intervened and they were not allowed to purchase them.

I seem to remember it took some political wrangling for NIR to get its 111s

23 minutes ago, RichL said:

BRCW had built the B101 class. In the early 1960s they were building the BR Class 27 and 33. These were generally good machines, apart from long term body rot issues. Sulzer engines too, which would have maintained some degree of continuity. BRCW were really struggling to build the BR orders on time though - and effectively went bust in the process.

An Irish equivalent of the Class 33 might have been a good bet for CIE - a class 47 equivalent would probably have been too big and in any case was developed by a different company, Brush.

I was more thinking in terms of engine power rather than bodyshell in the sense of having a Sulzer loco of over 2,000hp rather than a GM one.

1 hour ago, murphaph said:

It's just a pity so much of the network had/has TSRs that mean hardly has a train accelerated to 100 it is braking again for the next restriction. Nowhere on the network has a line speed over 100.

I honestly think the amount of money the 201 shape saved in fuel economy could be counted on one hand but that's a gut feeling and I absolutely stand to be corrected!

Perhaps the intention was there however. Unfortunately Irish Rail made a number of senseless decisions along the way, the needless scrapping of the mkIIIs a few years after buying all those locos being the most obvious. 

Still plenty of push pull and loco hauled trains here in Germany, despite the advent of the multiple unit.

Perhaps I'm wrong, but I thought that past Inchicore linespeed had been upgraded to 100mph for 50 miles continously as well as many other lower restrictions past Portlaoise having also been raised, such as the crossing at Emly going from 60 to 80 iirc.

Though it's not done a huge amount for journey times. From 1987 the fastest weekday Dublin-Cork were 2h30 with two stops and linespeed was only 90 as far as Limerick Jcn., it was 75 to Mallow and only 65 beyond Mallow then. 

I believe the timing is mostly 2h30 with 4 stops now but that's with 100mph maximum and higher speeds permitted throughout the route now, so it's not really impressive.

The morning ex-Cork non-stop is 2h45, but in 1999 the Sundays non-stop were 2h17 in the up and 2h18 in the down and there were only 3 short 100mph sections then, the longest 13.5 miles.

14 minutes ago, RichL said:

Another question would be why didn't CIE continue development of the tried and trusted B101 class, which performed pretty well and was built by one of the better British diesel manufacturers. Even 1100/1101 could have been a basis for development (apart from their brakes).

I've often wondered that myself; then CIÉ might have ended up with something more akin to a Class 47 instead of the 071s.

28 minutes ago, murphaph said:

I wouldn't think it plays a significant role at the fairly sedate pace most Irish trains run at but maybe it was more a cosmetic decision.

59s are 60 or 75mph; 201s have a design speed of 165km/h (102.5mph). You'd be surprised how much difference aerodynamics make once you go above 70/80mph as Nigel Gresley was able to demonstrate with his design for the LNER A4 Pacifics in the 1930s. I believe that at over 80mph the saving was about 8.6lbs coal per mile.

34 minutes ago, murphaph said:

Yeah ok but the 66, has a similar engine to the 201 got a body style very similar to the 59. That was really my point, if made in an unclear manner. I always wondered why the 201 received the different front rather than just using what they already had.

Aerodynamics? The top part of the 201 cab being angled back whereas 59s are somewhat more slab-fronted.

27 minutes ago, David Holman said:

Add some legs to make a free standing one and you have a nice view blocker to hide the hole in the sky leading to the fiddle yard.

Perhaps even with this for the advert

That would be perfect to grace any late-1970s-1980s layout

If anyone is looking for a copy of IRRS Journal 061 (June 1973), there's a copy on eBay going for £3.50 (€3.90).

This is the one which covers the "legendary" April 1973 Supertrain timetable in addition to articles on GSR coaching stock, CIÉ timetables from 1952-1972 and a colour photo insert of the AC stock exterior and interiors as well as the usual news section etc

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/JOURNAL-OF-THE-IRISH-RAILWAY-RECORD-SOCIETY-JUNE-1973-No-61/313185358226?hash=item48eb4d5192:g:iCYAAOSwxElfOTV4

2 hours ago, Buz said:

Good job no trains in the offer then just platform and other station bits bits.

That would drive me to the brink of real insanity, not just what's considered normal levels of madness in railway modellers.

Childish bits with the right work and accessories that's beatable as long as it works size wise which it sounds like it might be, think I will take the bait on this one

If its a fail all-way's the junk box for later projects.

 

While we are on toy station bits are the 60's Triang modernization buildings and Hornby Dublo plastic art-deco station bits any use in an Irish setting I have some from my childhood and would at some point like to be able to use them if I can.

The Triang ones don't look to bad with a paint job and glazing fitted. but its the three foot rule instead of the two foot rule

All the pictures of Irish stations I have seen, seem to have a more rustic stone rural and definitely Irish feel to them.

I would think there should be some modern boring brick or concrete box monstrosities there somewhere.

regards John

It was more scale than look with the platform, but the trains would definitely be totally out of place!

2 hours ago, Noel said:

Yes typically EVs will manage upto 150,000km before their brake pads need replacing. I had a tour of Dart system in 1984 and one of the things the engineer made a big thing about was the regen braking as well as each coach weighing itself so that max speeds and braking distances automatically calculated in real time. I remember being pretty impressed with the German technology employed.

I wasn't sure if the 8100s were rheo only or regen & rheo.

Load weighting is actually quite simple with air suspension, Mk3 coaches have a mechanical linkage which tops up the brake cylinders automatically up to 50% over the normal pressure for the carriage being unladen and I imagine the 8100s have a similar system rather than an electronic one being of the same era.

1 hour ago, Noel said:

Ah so like regen braking in EVs? Pity the derelict out of service 201s at inchicore could not get reengined with hybrid systems, then the regen could go back into the battery rather than resistors, reduce the amount of diesel pollution and especially filthy NoX that locos emit.

Very similar, just with rheostatic the braking energy is wasted as heat but with regenerative some of it is turned back into electrical energy which can be used by other trains. Recovery is about 25%, so you can make some decent savings on energy as well as brake pad or shoe wear.

I believe some of the DART electric units are set-up for regen?

23 minutes ago, murphaph said:

The MM ESU file for the 201 has a fan function (I think F5). Is that the resistor bank cooling fan noise?

That I'm not sure about, is there a list of functions and does that state precisely what it is meant to simulate?

5 minutes ago, murphaph said:

Great stuff so I don't need to consider any of the dynamic brakes sounds stuff at all. 

 

Correct, no need for the cooling fan noises.

3 hours ago, Buz said:

Hi all

Last night I got a phone call from a friend in the big smoke offering me at the right price $00.00 some Bachmann Underground Ernie Platform he though It might be enough for a small two or three car railcar platform or something.

My instinct is telling me it might be too modern image for my tastes just for starters.

His thing is "N" scale and about all I have for a description is it's to big for me to use  and you might be able to use it.

Never heard of it or seen any of it here in Australia so does any one know what Bachmann Underground Ernie is.

So the serious questions are, what am I being offered?? and is it going to be of any use  at all for OO scale trains??

Or is it just going to end up in the modeling might be useful for something maybe some day junk box .

Both of us learned a long time ago you don't throw anything toy or model trains away.

regards John

 

Underground Ernie is a UK children's TV programme, so the platform may be quite "childish" in some respects. The underground trains are all re-imagined Thomas the Tank-style with faces and personalities for a start.

2 hours ago, murphaph said:

I have looked through Wikipedia and for everything up to the 201 it seems clear enough that these locos had no dynamic brakes. The 201 wiki mentions "27LAV blended brakes, not used". What does this mean exactly?

They have dynamic brakes but never use them?

They were supplied with dynamic, more correctly rheostatic brakes, but Irish Rail decided it was unnecessary and it was isolated pretty much from the beginning.

1 hour ago, Railer said:

Basically yes. They have slow speed creep control too but that is isolated like the blended brakes. That feature would be ideal when the 201s are on ballast duties.

The 29000 DMUs have dynamic blended brakes, always used when they first entered service. Then around 2008-2010 it was isolated due to a few engine fires. I the past 2-3 years the these have been enabled again with set 29010 being the first to have it reinstated.

To be fair they are two different forms of dynamic braking. The 201s have rheostatic brakes where the traction motors are reversed and become in effect generators, working to impede the trains motion. The current generated passes through a bank of resistors and the energy is dissipated as heat.

The 29000s have a hydro-dynamic retarder, not entirely dissimilar to retarders in many modern buses. I'd need to look at the Journal which has details on the class, but often the issue with hydro-dynamic retarders is where the heat generated during braking is dissipated. Sometimes it's entirely through the transmission fluid other times the fuel tank is used as a heat sink.

In GB, the Alstom Class 175 and 180 have hydro-dynamic retarders but both are isolated as particularly with the latter class it caused some fires. The Siemens Class 185 by contrast also has a hydro-dynamic retarder but it has never caused any problems on this class and remains in use.

3 hours ago, murphaph said:

Exactly, EMD calls the pistons & liners "power assemblies" according to Wikipedia. I've also seen the term "power pack".

 

Well then, surely if it's just pistons and liners that's not really changing the basic engine, so wouldn't the 567 sound still apply in the main?

13 minutes ago, murphaph said:

So as we know, the 141s equipped with 567 engines were upgraded with the power assemblies from the 645 engine series. 

So what sound is broadly closer to the upgraded prototype? An 8-567 or an 8-645?

Please note I'm aware that later on several 141s received actual 645 engines. I'm specifically talking about the 567s with the 645 power packs/assemblies though.

If anyone knows of a particularly suitable Loksound 4 or 5 file for these upgraded 141s I'd appreciate a pointer.

 

 

 

Wasn't the original modifications purely the pistons and piston liners for reasons of parts standardisation rather than the engines themselves?

If I am correct with that, then it would still be a 567 "under the hood" so to speak so I don't think those alterations would change the engine sound as such, the idle and max revs would be still those for a 567 engine so that difference from a 645 would still be there.

13 minutes ago, Noel said:

The biggest visual difference to my eyes is the coach ends are completely different. BR mk3 have curvey corners, whereas the IR CAF mk4 have abrupt flat ends at right angles to the body sides.

Please forgive the visual blasphemy and modernity of this  These were resprays sourced from Chris Dyre, I think resprayed by Tony Mirolo. The bogies and underside aren't bad but the coach ends and corridor connectors scream difference.

I quite like the look of these as possible respray donors, the coach ends are right, but the underside doesn't match up much. The mk5 DVT looks a lot closer to the CAF Mk4 DVT than any other BR version.

The IÉ Mk4 bogies look closer to the BR Mk4's SIG bogies than the CAF Mk5a ones. Underframe needs boxed in though whereas the CAF Mk5a have the various modules exposed more like Mk2 coaches.

I agree the DVT is closer, though perhaps if the CAF 5a were 125mph as with the IÉ Mk4s the shape would be even closer, though the passenger accommodation doesn't really fit.

In essence I can see +s and -s with both but I think the Hornby Mk4s are still a closer fit generally. The DVT is the main issue, I think though someone has done a modified nose for that which was exactly the right shape.

1 hour ago, connollystn said:

@hexagon789. Is the Cavalex version of the BR Class 91 not at an advanced stage now? Can't recall when they announced it but it I think it was at Warley last year.

Regarding the IE "Mark IVs' - it'd be interesting to know if there's a market for a set of those coaches considering that they only operate on one route and that there are no updated versions of the current Class 201[new] available.

As Warbonnet says, that was cancelled due to Hornby producing their own one, so not in '00' but after cancelling that, they did say they were continuing with their 'N' gauge one. Afaik that hasn't been cancelled unless I've missed something.

1 minute ago, Railer said:

Hornby came out saying they are working on a retooling of their old 91 model which put the brakes on Cavalex's project. Hornby however said nothing about their BREL/Camel Mk4s.

I thought they had said something about the Mk4s but perhaps I'm misrecallling. They didn't do the full range anyway, missing the TOE and I think TOD vehicles, the four types covered being PO, SV, TO and DVT.