hexagon789

2 hours ago, Colin R said:

Thanks I don't have a copy so I will watch this one, unless anyone else wants it.

 

Colin Rainsbury 

Good luck mate

14 minutes ago, murphaph said:

How many editions were there of the Doyle & Hirsch rolling stock book? I count three, up to Irish Rail in 1987. Was there a fourth covering IE?

Three.

1st - 1979, 001 Class on cover

2nd - 1981, NIR 111 on cover

3rd - 1987, DART EMU on cover 

Technically the 1987 covers IÉ in a fashion as that's when CIÉ split the rail operations into Irish Rail/Iarnród Éireann and the book reflects this by changing the title from Locomotives and Rolling Stock of Coras Iompair Eireann and Northern Ireland Railways to Locomotives and Rolling Stock of Irish Rail and Northern Ireland Railways for the final edition.

For post-1987 you want the Irish Traction Group books published in four editions - 1987, 1989, 1994 and 2004.

First edition Doyle/Hirsch rolling stock book, bids starting at £2 & ends in two days if anyone is still on the look for a copy at reasonable prices:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LOCOMOTIVES-ROLLING-STOCK-OF-CORAS-IOMPAIR-EIREANN-NORTHERN-IRELAND-RAILWAY/264923945235?hash=item3daeb29913:g:xd0AAOSw7TNfobo-

3 minutes ago, murphaph said:

It helps a lot as always

I was missing the crucial aspect of the air being forced into the passenger space via the train's movement.

I believe that's how it works, I can't see how else it would without an air-conditioning plant to do the job of sucking the air in.

29 minutes ago, murphaph said:

Can somebody explain what pressure ventilation means in this context. I tried googling but the term is not specific enough I reckon.

How did it work in a railway context?

Forced air ventilation might be a better term. Vents on the roof take in air forced by the movement of the train through the air. This is then heated as necessary and directed via ducts to vents in the passenger accommodation. Windows within the passenger accommodation also have sliding ventilators (moveable segments in the glass) which allow more ventilation in hot weather. These were marked on British stock with arrows to show how far they could be opened to allow fresh air in but without draughts if wished.

It's worth noting that while the British Mk2D and 2E stock had sealed windows they actually were still pressure ventilated with the air-con system fitted on top essentially. This proved to be rather poor in service, the Mk2F stock therefore had no pressure ventilation system and had fully integrated air-con, this system was also used on the Irish Mk2D stock and later on both British and Irish Mk3 stock.

Hopefully that helps a bit? I'm not always that great at explaining things!

2 hours ago, geraghtyg said:

Looked at the video again, the sealed window side (compartment side) are reduced height D/E/F style whilst the sliding toplight ventilators on the corridor side are full sized.

An intriguing and probably unique combination.

54 minutes ago, geraghtyg said:

In the second Youtube video from Drogheda that I posted in this thread last Wednesday evening, what is suspected to be the Brake First Executive (1st carriage in the consist) has sliding toplight ventilators on the corridor side and sealed windows on the compartment side, making this a very unique carriage. 

Still full sized windows or the reduced height Mk2 AC style?

54 minutes ago, geraghtyg said:

As for the apology, absolutely no need for it  Would have been very easy to mistake something like that which you've not seen for a long time.

It was even longer than I thought - about 10 years since I last saw it!

15 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

For what’s it worth the one I recall wasn’t an a/c one.... it had ordinary windows.

As far as I know the Brake First Executive retained pressure vent Mk2-style sliding toplight ventilators and not sealed windows.

8 hours ago, geraghtyg said:

I couldn't view it as I'm not in the UK but I think I found the same programme on youtube and if so, the interview in the 1st class NIR Enterprise carriage is just a regular MkII non-AC open First.

Apologies, it's been that long since I watched it. I thought there was a compartment but obviously not.

Found something I was looking for earlier - a YouTube video in which, at 3 mins 40, there is a Black 'n' Tan pair of Baby GMs on a mixed formation of Mk2Ds. I'd guess at mid-1970s, probably about 1975/76.

4 hours ago, flange lubricator said:

An interesting detail I have recently come across 001 had its roof painted black in those early shots of the supertrain, Looking at the IRRS Flickr site there is an early photo of 183 and 187 deptarting Cork in supertrain livery and the center roofs on both locos look like they are painted black too which is a new one on me . 

I believe that was the original intention, but they soon decided not to perpetuate it with other locos.

2 hours ago, Noel said:

Yes a fascinating time when ancient 1950s A class loco's hauled modern air-con coaches and CWR was progressively growing out from Houston through kildare on the Cork line. Ironic that the A classes looked all modern and aerodynamic yet mechanically they were old tech, whereas the boxey looking GMs were much more up to date. A time when you could pass through Limerick junction and see a uniform rake of modern containers in an adjacent line or siding to a mixed rake of loose coupled 2 axles goods wagons and/or bulleid corrugated beet wagons, with 1950s coaching running through the station at the same time as the swish of mk2d's behind a pair of baby GMs. Pure magic for diversity and variety of operations, the goods shed siding in each small station had its days numbered as the sun started to set on manually handled pick up goods traffic. At least the non-supertrain passenger formations still had fabulous variety in their make up. As JHB often commented often were there were rarely more than two coaches of the same type in a rake. Glad I lived through those days and traveled by train a lot. Watching the tracks fly by underneath large gaps in gangway floors was exciting and the noise an assault on the senses as they rattled and clanked.

Funny you should mention that the "A"s looked more modern than the GMs, I'm reading a set of journals I recently procured and a short piece in the news section of one refers to the GM classes giving excellent service and rarely failing but the "A"s suffering many failures even after re-engining (apparently electrical failures). The uprated ones were far more reliable as the electrical equipment had been refurbished and the traction motors rewound.

As for the decade I can only experience it through photos and the old few film clips but the atmosphere is completely different to the modern railway in almost every way.

2 hours ago, Garfield said:

I wouldn't say the A Class were "ancient" in 1972 - they were only 17 years old and in terms of technology were on a par with the GMs of the time, which were only 6-11 years younger (depending on class), and in their 12-645E engines they had a newer block design than the 121s and 141s. By comparison, the 201 Class were already 12 years old by the time the CAF Mk4s were introduced...

Not ancient but definitely still not as reliable as the GMs

1 hour ago, Noel said:

That's a fabulous photo to have. B&T livery locos hauled the original super train livery mk2d sets for some years before all the locos got repainted in super train livery to match the A class locos which match the roof profile of the mk2d's as well as the livery. I remember the 1972 CIE TV adverts vividly, looked like the height of modernity coming to an Ireland of Peat, Turf and Bogs, still getting used to the idea of colour traffic lights instead of black and white ones. When the Riordans were peak time TV viewing and if even the word 'toilet' was mentioned on the late late show, croziers were beating down with Bishops letters of condemnation the following Sunday at services. A time when the riordans had tractors and mini skirts  

Given the first two AC sets entered traffic from the 4th December 1972 and 001 wasn't painted into ST until early the next year, there would've been a few months with only BnT locos hauling them.

It's a fascinating period marked by new air-conditioned stock coupled with significant service improvements in the beginning of the decade, a new livery, then a series of worsening cuts in its middle, and finished off with some improvements again to the train service and new powerful 071 locos as well.

Similar significant change in Northern Ireland Railways as well with the New Enterprise of 1970, the end of steam, the 80 Class Railcars, rationalisation of the Belfast termini stations and so on.

I used to not be that interested in anything pre-Mk3 era but I think the 1970s interests me at least as much if not more than the 1980s now.

I haven't watched this in a while but if memory serves the Executive Brake is seen in this programme from the BBC - Great Railway Journeys: https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/p03rdrdk/great-railway-journeys-series-2-4-michael-palin-derry-to-kerry

10 hours ago, DJ Dangerous said:

Now that's an exellent photo, and again, more valuable information, thank you!

Not long now and modellers will be able to recreate that train!

And the Cù na Mara of the same year, usually a 121 pair in '76.

1 hour ago, murphaph said:

Is that a three aspect colour light signal just sitting there on the ground?

Clearance issues?

Thought I might find something in Jonathan Allen's excellent flickr albums (I can easily get lost for hours in those!) and sure enough I've come up trumps. I couldn't find any BnT with AC stock in 1977 but here's a BnT pair on the 0830 "Supertrain" to Cork at Hueston station in 1976: 

(Photo credit to Jonathan Allen)

He notes this was booked for a pair of 121s in the working timetable, but 174 is subbing for the other 121.

Somehow I've always liked BnT locos on supertrain stock I think the contrast is more interesting and I like the livery anyway!

1 minute ago, DJ Dangerous said:

Wow, that is impressive!

As an aside, were the Mk2D's ever hauled by locos still in black, or only by SuperTrain locos and later?

I'm sure that @Irishswissernie

 @jhb171achill
 will have photographic evidence if so!

Plenty of photos of ARs, B121, B141, B181 Black 'n' Tan locos on Mk2 AC stock and mixed pairs (one BnT, one ST) as well.

There is a picture in the O'Dea collection of a double BnT 141/181 pair on a Cork Road Mk2d set in early 1973 before the large sets were shortened (from  EGV+8 to EGV+6) and the number of links increased (from 5 links with large sets plus the Tralee link (only EGV+4) introduced in January 1973 to 8 links from April 1973 plus the Enterprise from May).

There were definitely some 141/181s in BnT until after the 071s entered service, probably as late as 1978 at least.

And I'm probably going into too much detail again(!), so to summarise - yes, BnT livery locos worked Mk2d AC stock from entry to service until at least 1977 if not slightly later.

3 hours ago, NIR said:

What it looks like

http://www.railsigns.uk/info/nstr1/nstr_f1.gif

Would seem to have been the obvious solution for a three trains a day railway.

(the 'ground signals' are point indicators confirming the lay of the points, the blank board says 'end of section - proceed if platform line clear')

Much cheaper than manned crossing gates and full semaphore signalling.

Though the GB system has full train protection something lacking outside the DART corridor afaik.

4 minutes ago, DJ Dangerous said:

Incredibly detailed reply, thank you!

No problem, I spent long enough researching the Mk2D fleet so I should know plenty about them by now!

If you ever need an individual vehicle number checked I have a master list I compiled which I can refer to.

25 minutes ago, DJ Dangerous said:

Were the Murphy Models InterCity Mk2D's the same internally / cosmetically as their SuperTrain counterparts?

As in, would MM5236 (IE Standard Orange Roof), MM5210 (IE Standard Black Roof), MM5217 (IE Standard Black Roof), MM5219 (IE Standard Orange Roof(, MM5201 (ST Standard), MM5215 (ST Standard) and MM5223 (ST Standard) all be the same apart from the livery?

MM5202 (ST Standard), MM5214 (ST Standard) and MM5224 (ST Standard) were repaints of the earlier ST coaches, I believe.

The only vehicles which never changed internal layout were the Standards 5201-5236.

The Superstandards (5101-5106) were covered to 56 or 62 seat Standards between 1985 and 1987, though 5106 remained Superstandard until the late 1990s for the Enterprise, it being converted to Standard in about 1998/9 (I can get the exact year if needed).

The Composites (5151-5159) were very variable. 5 were converted very early in May/April 1973 to 54-seat Standards (5153-5156 and 5158). The remainder remained as Composites until 1988 though were declassified in the early/mid-1980s. Only 3 were actually internally composites by 1988 but in that year it was decided to reinstate Superstandard on Sligo line trains and so one was converted back (not one of the remaining post-1973 ones but one converted to Standard in that year).

The Sligo line lost its by then First Class accommodation in about 2000/2001 but two composites survived as such internally until 2004 (5152 and 5156), 5156 was still such in May 2005.

For the Kitchen Standards the only major change was removing 4 seats for wheelchair space in the 1990s.

So yes, all the vehicles you've quoted would be identical internally unless as they are all the 52xx series Standards seating 64.

10 hours ago, Dhu Varren said:

The first coach in the second clip is indeed the Brake Executive Generator Van, but the second coach is in fact 813 now numbered 917, the original Driving Brake First from 1970. This vehicle would have had a large Guards Compartment as described by JHB.    

Though it had open seating as did all of the first two batches of Mk2 stock built new for NIR.

16 hours ago, geraghtyg said:

If you go to 3:35 on THIS youtube video at Malahide from 22nd August 1993, you can see that the first carriage (a BFK) is still a corridor as you can the sliding doors inside. Incidentally, the train itself is a very long 13 piece GAA special.......probably about as long as they got!

At 3:22 in THIS Youtube video from July 1993, you can see that the first two carriages are BFKs. What's noteworthy is that if you view the train from the other side as it leaves Drogheda station @ 4:10, you can see that the windows are of the non-opening variety on the first carriage as this carriage became an executive coach with air conditioning. I suspect that this is the same carriage mentioned in the other video.

Personally I can't see anything! I'll take your word for it.

I looked through the first three editions of the ITG books, the 1998 Platform 5 and journals 1987-1998 and all agree there was no compartment stock on NIR after 1991 unless an error has crept in.

My thinking is the vehicle jhb travelled in could have been the Brake Executive First as it is simply listed as "loose seating as required" and compartments would probably be preferred for the likes of business meetings on board etc.

2 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

I’m no expert on NIR stock - a bit modern for me - but on the last fling of those things, the 08:00 Portadown - Belfast (Maysfields Cattle Sidings), which I believe was the last REGULAR use of the 111/071 class anywhere, there was a side corridor brake 1st (used as a standard), which I would guess I was last in about 2000/1/2?

 

They also obtained BFKs (Brake First Corridor) as well these having gensets fitted to heat the other coaches as of course unlike the Hunslets, the 111s couldn't heat coaching stock.

These are still marked as compartment stock in 1994.

Need to look out my other stock books for later dates, but I wouldn't expect them to still have had the older Mk2s some 3 years after displaced by the De-Dietrichs?

Edit: Though saying that, the gen van used with the Gatwicks was one of the ex-BFK Corridor Standard Generator Brakes.

Re-edit: I've checked, NIR had no compartment stock after 1991. The Brake First/Standard Corridor Generators were all converted in 1988/89 to open seating.

21 minutes ago, NIR said:

I'm just wondering if something as basic as the Heart of Wales line exists in Ireland.

No signals just stop boards 'obtain permission to proceed', no point motors just trains trailing through loops, no automatic barriers just drivers stopping and pressing plungers to operate level crossings.

The Heart of Wales uses NSTR (No Signalman Token Remote).

Four other GB lines use this, it is a cheaper and simpler version of the Radio Electronic Token Block used on the likes of the West Highland the Far North and the Kyle Line.

Loops are equipped with hydraulic points which are spring in one direction so can only be traversed at 15mph, if necessary they can be hand-pumped to the opposite side but will automatically slowly return to their 'normal' position.

All loops have a fixed distant board on approach which are equipped with an AWS magnet. The stop boards have a TPWS loop to prevent SPADs exiting loops.

The driver operates the block equipment from small huts at the passing loop stations and this includes de-energising the TPWS loops to proceed out of the loops past the stop boards.

19 minutes ago, murphaph said:

So just for my own benefit, the NIR FKs were all converted to open standards by say 1995?

Did any FKs survive as corridors, perhaps indeed as firsts?

The only two not converted with withdrawn to provide spares, so all of the former BR Western Region FKs which became Standards AND remained in service by 1995 were indeed converted to open seating.

One FK entered service as First Class, but this was converted to Open Standard 920 in 1991.

54 minutes ago, murphaph said:

Were these BR FKs not converted to opens like their counterparts in the Republic?

Not initially, they entered service as Compartment Standards and were only converted to open in 1988-89.

That had the benefit of increasing seating capacity by 14 seats per vehicle.

8 hours ago, murphaph said:

When were the grey ones with the blue stripe repainted to the later livery (corporate is it?)? Pictures I have seen suggest it was done in the late 80's already. Did any of the earlier ones survive into the 90s? I kind of prefer the earlier livery as it is kind of reminiscent of BR blue & grey which I have a soft spot for.

I think I posted about this in the thread on NIR 111 Class liveries, if not let me know and I can check the journals tomorrow

3 minutes ago, murphaph said:

So I think those frames are all still silver and the coaches are still in IR livery. The IE 201 shows this video is from 94 or later. I really strongly suspect now that with the livery change to IE these coaches had their window frames painted black.

 

That's my thinking as well, I think the silver frames are a nice touch. They looked well on the 2D stock.

7 minutes ago, murphaph said:

Thanks for going to such lengths Ben. I have a gut feeling the silver window frames disappeared with the change to IE livery. I haven't found any pictures with silver window frames + IE logos. It would be nice to find even one picture disproving this gut feeling. 

 

I suddenly had an idea - YouTube.

John Hewitt's series of seven 1993/4 IR videos and sure enough, there's a Mk2 set in this one at 2:17. Looks like silver frames on the windows though the light is rather poor:

I'll let you see if you agree