hexagon789

1 minute ago, NIRCLASS80 said:

Hattons already listing some of the items!

They got in there quick!

2 minutes ago, DJ Dangerous said:

Fingers crossed that the releases are phased to allow us time to harvest organs etc.

IR Mk2D's first, please!

As tempting as they might be I'm not sure I want to have a dual dual location/dual era layout as opposed to my present single era one location/dual era other location layout. Otherwise matters are only going to get crazier!

I can see I'm not going to be able to resist and it is going to become dual dual! Oh dear! 

Well, this is the announcement of the century!

Proper Irish Mk3s, count me in for some in Supertrain. 

Now the big question... do I want to break my railways period setting and get a 201 or not? ;)

I'll be interested to see how the Mk3s turn out, very interested.

On 5/2/2021 at 2:14 PM, jhb171achill said:

It wouldn't be a train make-up, as such, as a BR genny van couldn't operate with AC coaches. Just random stuff coupled together; a cattle truck in the middle of such a string of vehicles would have been just as likely a generation earlier!

While this is undoubtedly an ECS working, in one of the IRRS Journals of the 1970s I do remember reading of an unusual working in the news section - an orthodox set on a Dublin-Cork working augmented by two Mk2D standards and EGV on the rear. All conveying passengers as far as I could make out.

On 5/2/2021 at 2:16 PM, WRENNEIRE said:

Some lovely pics here, great reference material:

https://rcts.zenfolio.com/buildings-and-infrastructure/stations-and-station-buildings-cie?fbclid=IwAR3L2IUCHmbTx5KNfcHvRxiXaC-1VZ5gn9kWJc5BIF-nJCmgtBM64-OakRI

An excellent resource for railways in general. There's a good shot of the original interior of the NIR Enterprise Mk2b First Class coach somewhere else on that site.

4 minutes ago, DJ Dangerous said:

We may be lucky and see 072 draped in black and tan for her 45th birthday, who knows?

I wouldn't mind seeing that, 071 and 073 look superb in their respective repaint schemes. It would complete a nice trio as well - 071, 072, 073.

5 hours ago, DJ Dangerous said:

Oh come on! The 201's were gorgeous when delivered.

Well said that man, I fully agree!

5 hours ago, Westcorkrailway said:

I think the 071s were very unlucky to not get this livery Black and tan was easy to maintain and certainly one of if not thee best livery ever by CIE

I mean I like it on 141/181s but I'm not sure about 071s.

16 minutes ago, Niles said:

After a period they could end up mixed in with standard sets, I've a pic somewhere of 5233 attached to the back of a Rosslare to stengthen the regular 6+van set for a hurling match. Seen them mixed into Sligo sets too. 

The upholstery had a sort of lilac hue (very briefly considered retrieving the seats when we stripping parts for preserved Cravens back in the day as @mphoeymight recall). I quite liked them.

There was a photo shared within another thread on here where an otherwise all 'Galway' set had a normal EGV at the front and an ex-Composite on the rear irrc breaking up the harmony of the colour scheme 

2 hours ago, captainelectra said:

I wonder if anyone is able to provide me with more details of the Irish Rail Galway-liveried Mark 2s? I am currently working on vinyl overlays for the Mk2s in OO and N and would like to get these 100% correct.

Particularly interested in coach numbers, set formation and any close ups of the Information stickers with seating details, etc.

This is what I have so far. The windows will be clear on the production version and fit the Airfix / Dapol / Hornby Mk2D.

 

They entered service in May 2001 and were among the last 2Ds in service, probably because they were in the best condition.

No Composites, ex-Composites or ex-Firsts were treated.

The vehicles were first used mixed in with un-refurbushed vehicles, the first dedicated set made entirely of these was launched on the 23rd July 2001.

The cost for the 8 vehicles was IR£800,000 (€1m)

The set went into the link:

0520 Galway-Hueston

1100 Hueston-Galway

1510 Galway-Hueston

1905 Hueston-Galway

Vehicles treated were:

5601 - Gen Van

5411 - Kitchen Buffet Standard

5209*, 5213, 5216, 5225, 5232*, 5233, 5235 - Standards

*5209 and 5232 were not completed until September 2001

The refurbishment included bodywork corrosion treatment, and 'stick-on' roof, new carpets/seats/curtains/tables/toilet fittings and externally of course a new livery similar to that originally carried by the 201 Class.

(Information can be found in IRRS Journal no. 146, October 2001)

Well no luck finding the original photo, that had a set with at least two non-Tippex Mk3 suburbans in the set and was pictured at a station.

However, there is a silver lining - my search turned up not one but two other photos of a rake of suburban Mk3s, each set had one vehicle in Supertrain, that is to say no white 'Tippex' bands. 

3 hours ago, RedRich said:

MK11 F had bigger roof access hatches then the rest of the MK11 series.

Rich,

I'd guess because of the different air-con system but I've not checked if Irish 2Ds share the larger roof hatches.

3 hours ago, BosKonay said:

and that's before even talking about the Mk2b or c

Or A or Z, or the Pullmans etc etc

On 18/1/2021 at 5:33 PM, Dempsey said:

That would be great information as i aim to be model early 90's along the Dublin Belfast route. My view would be to model around about when the 201s started to come online. 

My knowledge is limited i admit

That would be 1995 then for when the 201s appeared but if anything Belfast was about the last mainline they appeared on - IR seemed to want to get the Hueston links over to 201s first before they put any 201s on the Belfasts.

While nearly all the Hueston InterCity links are booked 201 in 1995 for example, there are no 201s booked from Connolly.

I can help with your basic IR Belfast Mk2D set though, bear in mind Northern Ireland Railways provided most of the services - two diagrams, IR only provided one set until the De-Dietrichs took over and a shared stock pool was created.

Typically the sets for Belfast would be: 

Gen Van+First*+Kitchen Buffet Standard+ between 5-7 Stds**

Notes - sometimes only 4 standards but 7 was usual particularly on busy days

* this would be 5106 as this was the last full First, the other being converted to Standards from 1985 onwards. If it was unavailable one if the Sligo dedicated Composites would cover.

**-the Standards could include the Composites converted to 54-seat Standards, but I've yet to see an ex-First appear in a set.

Hope that helps in some way, any further questions just ask! ;)

After spending some more time comparing the types, I've noticed another reason to use a 2F as an approximate for an Irish 2D - they share the same B4 bogies variant with friction rather than hydraulic dampers.

I must admit that surprised me given all British B4s had hydraulic dampers up to the Mk2E coaches and the Irish 2D slot between the British 2D and 2E age-wise but there you go, you learn something new every day as they say!

19 hours ago, Dempsey said:

During the IE era of branding? 

Would it have been similar to the make up of a mk3 rake? 

I should also have added I can offer some prototype formations if you give a rough year/years and route, I have a list of some 2D set makeups for the IÉ era.

16 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

Wow! 

That's interesting to a "livery nerd" like me...... But it begs the question were these carriages which were later amended (window-wise) to fit these sets (but not repainted)? If so, that's ALSO something I was unaware of...... I'd be interested to see the pics.

Thanks for the info!

Don't thank me too much, I still haven't found the blasted photo!

Doing my nut in trying to recall exactly which Flickr account I found it in.

Just now, jhb171achill said:

I'd be interested to see the pics. The control cars certainly never ran like that, as the "tippex" livery had arrived before they entered traffic. 

The older stock were air-con, so this would have meant two a/c coaches running within the set? Certainly a new one to me!

No definitely push-pull intermediates, they had hopper windows not sealed ones.

I've an idea of a couple of Flickr accounts to check but I'll leave that to tomorrow.

28 minutes ago, Dempsey said:

During the IE era of branding? 

Would it have been similar to the make up of a mk3 rake? 

No, after the Mk3s were introduced the Mk2D fleet was downgraded and by the IÉ era the rakes were very mixed. The only one real certainty is the Gen Van would be the first or last coach!

There does seem to be a vague pattern that the Buffet Standard would often be behind or within two coaches of the gen van but this was not at all a hard and fast rule, I've seen plenty of rakes when the buffet is over half way through the set from the Gen Van and even one where it was the last coach.

You have to go back to the IR era for even a vague sort of general formation and that would even then only apply to Belfast and Sligo sets which still had Super Standard accommodation and so were formed Gen Van-First (Belfast)/Compo (Sligo)-Buffet-Standards* 

*which could include former composites or Super Standards downgraded.

Into the 2000s with the advent of the De Dietrichs on Belfasts and end of Super Standard accommodation on Sligos all Mk2D sets were Standard only though a few composites remained such internally until at least 2006.

By the time of withdrawal afaik everything was converted to Standard Class:

You had the original standards seating 64

The former composites seating 54

The former super-standards seating 62

All 2+2 standard class seating.

23 minutes ago, Dhu Varren said:

Aside from the difference in the underfloor A/C equipment between Mk 2D and Mk 2F, the Standard class/2nd class BR 2D has the toilets positioned on the same side, whereas the Standard class/2nd class 2E/F have the toilets positioned on opposite corners. Super Standard class/1st class 2D/E/F all have the toilets positioned on the same side. The Irish Standard class '2D' has the toilets positioned on opposite corners. 

Indeed, BR went a bit full circle there. Mk1 and the first Mk2s seated 64 in standard class opens, by the Mk2b the removal of the centre vestibule and positioning of the toilets at opposite ends meant seating capacity was reduced by 2 as the shape of the toilet required an offset passage from vestibule to passenger saloon so the seating was only 2+1 at the outer ends.

This was carried over into the BR Mk2D hence these only seated 62 in Standard Class opens, the Mk2E design changed this.

The toilets were placed at diagonally opposite corners, reduced in size and made square and this enabled a return to 64 seats in the Mk2E and F standards.

6 minutes ago, Dempsey said:

What would have been a typical rake? 

Need a "when" for that.

The types of vehicles and seating arrangements were altered over the course of their life quite considerably.

The first change came after only 4 months in traffic for instance.

56 minutes ago, popeye said:

That's good information, Thanks, it's confusing.

Well at least Irish Rail only had one variant of air-con Mk2!

25 minutes ago, Dempsey said:

So if you wanted to repaint mk2 the mk2e and f are the best? 

I'd say go 2F because the underframe equipment is the closest. I actually spent some time comparing BR Mk2D, E and F and Irish examples and the more I noticed that really there are elements of all 3 variants in the Irish ones as well as some items which seem unique to the Irish ones.

Really one should describe the Irish Mk2 AC stock as a hybrid Mk2DEF!

On 10/1/2021 at 6:07 PM, jhb171achill said:

No, the "supertrain" livery was gone by then.

AEC cars - I'm pretty certain they were only hauled by C's in push-pull mode. However, while I never saw it, I think the AECs may have been HAULED rather than "push-pulled" the odd time by a 141. 

Well I thought that, but some months ago I came across a photo on Flickr of a push-pull set with at least two intermediates in Supertrain instead of Tippex completely blowing away my belief that all Mk3 push-pull coaches started life immediately in Tippex.

15 minutes ago, murphaph said:

 

I think 2f is actually closer but externally I'm not sure if there was much of a difference.

 

Mostly related to the air-con, B4 bogies (hydraulic dampers vs friction dampers), door droplights and certain internal features.

1 hour ago, popeye said:

I don't know why it is called MK2 D when it is MK2 E, that's like calling a Jumbo jet a 707.

So if you want to respray some coaches into Supertrain livery MK2 D you need MK2 E coaches correct?

Presumably 2D because that's what existed when CIÉ placed the order. Literature of the time says based on the 2D design so that's the official line even if the reality is different.

Broadly speaking above the solebar they are more like a 2E, below like a 2F as the Irish 2D share air-con systems with the British 2F and the gubbins for that is different from the 2E.

There are a few purely Irish differences as well, need to find a book to remind myself of specifics.

Finally, you can only model two types by using the 2E as a based - Super-Standard (First) and Standard. Nothing is remotely close to the unique Gen Van, Kitchen Buffet Standard or Composites.

Further additions have been made since my last post, there are two Irish/Northern Irish additions - the NIR 1981 timetable and a further CIÉ one.

The CIÉ is the (in)famous "Supertrain" timetable of April 1973, I have a paper copy myself and to say it was revolutionary would be an understatement, many lines would not see as frequent a service again until the 1990s or even until the railcar revolution.

Link here for those interested:

https://timetableworld.com/ttw-viewer?token=02e204b2-a597-4565-8ee4-9ac4027df899

45 minutes ago, NIR said:

Great cover, happy and sad!

I never noticed that before either, but once you've had it pointed out you can't forget it! 

8 minutes ago, Niles said:

Worth noting that journals like the ITG's The Irish Mail and the IRRS Journal effectively provide a rolling update to these books for stock changes, stoppages, entries to traffic, withdrawl dates, re-numberings etc. 

 

I hate to have to say this, but given there are discrepancies as I've outlined, which source can one trust implicitly?

Is there one?

It's rather different now because for the present rolling stock one could simply physically go and check (ignoring the virus situation of course), but for stock which no longer operates it is of course impossible one has to trust books/magazines have their figures correct and they don't always.

If two or more sources agree I think it's reasonable to accept the data as correct but when they don't - it's very difficult to know which figure to take as correct.

On 6/11/2020 at 9:19 AM, Mayner said:

CIE seriously considered buying and re-gauging the  original "Blue Pullmans" sets from BR in the early 70s instead ordering the "Supertrain" sets from BREL.

All of them or bits of them?

I imagine they would've tried for a homogenised fleet of say four 8-car sets as the Western Region was considering before withdrawal.

The 2+1 seating would probably also have been replaced in Second Class I would've thought.

And finally, new bogies rather than simply stretching them to 5' 3" given the poor riding qualities of the bogies fitted.

On 6/11/2020 at 1:00 PM, jhb171achill said:

Where will it operate?

St Pancras to Manchester I believe via almost the original route of the Midland Pullman (there's a large gap between Matlock and Buxton on the original route).

1 hour ago, Robert Shrives said:

The Doyle tombs do however cover the freight fleets with number goups listed and small black and white photos which is a great helping hand.The ITG ones I have are passenger based but are also a great help with good colour pics.  Unless you like ICRs the latest volume might be seen as a bit of a disappointment! but that is progress I guess. 

Robert. 

The freight info is why I think 1987 in particular is quite sought after.

27 minutes ago, Niles said:

I remembering getting the Doyle & Hirsch volumes relatively cheap on Amazon about 10 years ago (and they were well out of print then) - mad how they've suddenly rocketed in value. As a carriage-nerd I find them quite useful.

The ITG's Traction & Travel volumes are also quite good for listing mileage tables and the like for routes open at the time of publication, along with loco stopped & withdrawn dates.

The ITG had another title issued circa 1997, Irish Locomotives & Rolling Stock, a neat little pocket book which listed preserved locos and carriages as well as those of IÉ/NIR (including some obscure narrow gauge locations).

They are very infrequently found now, perhaps everyone into modelling atm that wanted then bought them 10 years ago!

I don't mind admitting how much I spent on them, perhaps it will demonstrate why these £100+ figures for one book are far too much in my view - I spent £35.99 on all 3 together, the 3rd edition cost me the most.

I will also admit to being a carriage-nerd too!

23 minutes ago, WRENNEIRE said:

How would you guys rate Irish Railways Traction & Travel by Peter Jones
I have a second edition, 1989, with black & white & colour photos
Very comprehensive sections on all locos and coaching stock, including DMU's & Darts
One downside is that there is no freight section

I like them, the 1987 edition is one of my most prized Irish railway stock books because it's right on the threshold between the old and the new so to speak.

1 minute ago, jhb171achill said:

I think it is of great use as a reference work for what's in it. As far as I can gather (as much in it is too modern to be my PRIMARY interest), it appears to be highly accurate.

That is one slightly concern of mine though - accuracy. I used to assume the data was 100% accurate however since obtaining them there are some discrepancies between certain coaching stock details between them and information as per IRRS journals and indeed one discrepancy, perpetuated also by Platform 5, which I found photographic evidence to disprove.

Edit: I should add I'm referring to the ITG books, I've never found any of the data in the Doyle/Hirsch books to be at odds with the Journals

1 hour ago, Shane McD said:

Hi all,

I've just seen USED copies of this book on Amazon - both UK & USA - for silly money!! Is there something special about it that I'm missing?

Amazon.co.uk £146 & £219

Amazon.com $386

They seem quite sought after, but really any more than £30 is utterly obscene.

They can be difficult to obtain, months can go by with none available - it took me 18 months to source all 3. After obtaining 1987 first it was 17 months until I found 1981 and then less than two weeks later I managed to get 1979! In other words it's your luck on how long it takes to source them all.

The ITG books by comparison seem easier to obtain and are usually cheaper on average, I think it's like anything - the greater the demand and rarity the higher the price but those copies at over £100 are just not going to shift. There is still, over 3 years after I first saw it, a copy of 1987 for sale at £50 no one has bought it in all that time. Copies at less than £20 do sell well though.

47 minutes ago, Noel said:

Seems a expensive alright on Amazon for what will become a dust collector once its been perused.

I often refer back to mine fairly frequently as while I can easily recall the Mk2d and Mk3 number series the older coaching stock are too numerous in type and variants to recall all the number series and types so I regularly look back for that information.

I will say I prefer the ITG books, they have more information such as preserved stock, loco working diagrams and speed restriction tables and better photos but the Doyle/Hirsch books are invaluable for the late-1970s to 1980s modeller IMHO.

Perhaps a fair comparison would be that the Doyle/Hirsch are like a Platform 5 pocket book while the ITG books are more akin to a Platform 5 Combined volume.