hexagon789

25 minutes ago, DoctorPan said:

My reaction as a PW engineer to No.800 returning the network:
 

So... you can't wait then?

10 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

What’s really needed are various “tin vans” for the era of grey 121s and black or green “A”s, or earlier black’n’tan 141s, as the BR vans didn’t exist until early 70s.

Iirc they were delivered in batches both alone and with the first batches of AC MkIId stock, during the course of 1972.

It just got even more ridiculous, apparently there are 23(!?!?!) current new-build steam locomotive projects in Great Britain at the moment...twenty three!

9 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

N O W you are talking!!!

She could lift a fair load too, of course.......

Well, if we here in Britain can have new build LNER P2s and Peppercorn A1s, why can't Ireland have at least a re-steaming of one of its most illustrious steam locomotives?

(And yes I know there are reasons why not, but even as someone who is not primarily interested in steam I'd like to think positive about it.)

3 hours ago, leslie10646 said:

Easy, Hex. Repetition doesn't make an inaccuracy any more correct!

That's true, I agree with that, in this instance I was more thinking of the figure itself rather than the veracity of the record itself. You do see differing figures quoted on certain records sometimes.

3 hours ago, leslie10646 said:

For example, City of Truro - possibly a speed in the nineties, but NOT a hundred mph. You miss mileposts down Wellington today with massive BR posts, but the tiny GWR ones of that time and in the dark .......   That said, probably the first reasonably authenticated run around 90mph.

CoT is an interesting one, I've seen articles which have categorically stated she couldn't reach that speed but there was a good article in Steam Railway some years ago which neither agreed nor disagreed with the speed but pointed out some things.

Based on the train weight and the gradient, using simple calculations of train resistance the train would have been able to attain 90mph purely coasting down the hill. The stopwatch used recorded only to the nearest 0.2s. An error of just 0.3s could have changed the speed from 102.3 down to 98 or pushed it to 105mph. An error of 0.6s could have dropped speed to 91 mph pushed it to 108.

There are a number of records of 'Cities' attaining 90mph+ so the class was certainly capable of that.

You also have the point that the record was not instantaneous speed but an average of 102.3mph over a 1/4 mile, she would have needed to exceed 102.3 to obtain such an average, furthermore she was still accelerating at that point which raises the potential speed even higher. Driver Clements only shut off power and braked at the next milepost.

There have also been claims that CoT simply didn't have enough power to make such a speed but more modern calculations have shown it would be possible.

It will never be proven conclusively but personally I believe she at least could have reached 100mph.

3 hours ago, leslie10646 said:

Flying Scotsman? Cecil J Allen made it 99mph, but being  a LNER employee, said nothing about the claim.

Well, that emphasises my earlier point about the actual figures - I understood it to be 98mph she supposedly only attained! ;)

3 hours ago, leslie10646 said:

All that said, I agree that a loco of the size of an 800 should have been good for 90mph. We need a Time Machine.

And therein lies the problem, even with a full set of dynamometer rolls and stopwatch timings you can never really be sure about these older records and you can't go back and check them.

Perhaps easier than a building a time machine would be to re-steam 800 and give her a run... :)

35 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

Urban legends had the three 800s, or 800 herself at least, at 100.

Senior used to say that it is very possible, indeed probable on trial, but to his knowledge (and mine) no RELIABLE account seems to exist.

I can confirm that a 201 did do 105. Also, a retired driver told me that he often had 071s at well over 85 on passenger trains in the 1978-85 period when he drove on the Cork line.

The Passage 2.4.2Ts seem to have been the fastest narrow gauge locos, with the NCC 2.4.2Ts not far behind them.

 

Given the 96mph is quoted in a few places I think we can take that as read that 800 reached that speed. Given that's only 4 mph below 100 and the characteristics of the class bear similarity to British locos which managed into the three figures I think it is at the very least possible that an '800' could have made 100mph without difficulty, but if you read the IRRS Journals then the first officially recorded 100mph was not until 1984.

6 minutes ago, NIR said:

Ah, a BR 81, my mistake! One of the better of the early electrics, though rode abominably until they had suspension mods in the late-1970s.

Looks like she's just out the painful shop too.

5 minutes ago, NIR said:

That's a whole lot different to bouncing along behind a pissed up driver in an 81!

An 80 Class? 

34 minutes ago, Noel said:

Yes I used a hand help GPS on CAF Mk4 train hauled by 215 that indicated speeds just a little over 100mph on sections of the line (ie true SOG). Very smooth and quiet, whereas in the 1970s doing 70mphs on the old track felt like the bouncing train was about to leap the rails and break the sound barrier.     I remember the last coach before the loco had a window in the closed off gangway end plate, so you could see the loco bucking and bouncing like a wild thing, thinking at the time the buffers and couplings were getting a good exercise.

I don't know how strict IÉ are on speeds (typical GB allowance is 3 mph over but that's only a rough 'tradition') nor how they calibrate their train speedos (usually set to overread slightly here, and indicated 100 might only be 98mph for example) , but here in GB today you will almost never record higher than a trains maximum even by a few mph and on some lines and in some locations it's impossible due to various safety systems. In fact I can even think of one class where if it's maximum rated speed is exceeded by 3mph, it sends a text message to route control confessing the drivers' sins!

1 hour ago, leslie10646 said:

He has timed an 071 at JUST over 100mph, and suggests that a 201 may have managed close to 105mph.

Just over 100 for an 071 seems quite reasonable, one of the Mk3 trials managed 105.4 and the 201s have an overspeed limiter which is supposed to kick in at 105, but presumably they would disable it when they ran the Mk4 tests if they did indeed touch 120.

1 hour ago, leslie10646 said:

As for the others, 83mph a few times with a 141 and once only with a 121, but the mid-seventies were the norm. He timed a re-engined A Class ONCE at 80mph.The originals were not much faster than the steam they replaced, but could accelerate much better, of course.

Again seems very reasonable, I would expect the 141 to have freer running at speed given its 89mph gearing against 77mph for a 121, so I think you could say the 83 for a 121 is more impressive.

Interesting that only 80 for an 'A', the increased power doing little to overcome the nominal geared maximum of 75 for the 1,325hp units.

2 hours ago, leslie10646 said:

In the same way as we count the rivets on our models (no need on Paddy's locos which stand for themselves), no-one should believe a speed out of the blue, but as part of a methodical log (ie looking at averages between stations, or, in my case mileposts, before claiming a maximum speed).

I quite agree and I tend to believe that traditional logs based on timing milepost can be more accurate than GPS, the loss of coverage or similar can often lead to random spikes in speed. 

I remember someone being very proud to have captured a 140mph on a Virgin Pendolino until it was pointed out that it was impossible to reach that speed in service and no driver would risk it either and it was quite an obvious "spike" to 141mph in an otherwise sustained running at 123-124mph.

2 hours ago, leslie10646 said:

So, NO HORNBY DUBLO SPEEDS WITH YOUR NEW 121S, LADS - THEY DIDN'T DO THEM IN REALITY, BUT HAD A VERY DISTINCTIVE SOUND, WHICH I LOOK FORWARD TO HEARING AGAIN.

I think they sound better thrashing away getting on the move, to me that is the sound is would most identify with a 121.

5 hours ago, BSGSV said:

Yes, B4's, but without the dampers generally on UK bogies. The dampers are (or aren't) each end of the bogie beside the springs. Looking at a few photos should make it clear.

That's an interesting point and one I'd never noticed before!

3 hours ago, skinner75 said:

There was a 'wobble' to them, which can be seen in the vid below. The fix was to add some shims I believe

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FqYh8Ei-zUI

Surely that's quite realistic for a Craven hammering it up the Cork Road at eighty?

35 minutes ago, BSGSV said:

As you say, but could have a motor issue too. On the GM's you need to isolate a pair, so an 071 would be on four motors. I think 071's also very occasionally were used in that state on the Limerick - Ballybrophy line, in similar circumstances. 

One of the working timetables I have notes that '001' Class locomotives are prohibited from working goods trains of certain weight over the likes of the Rosslare-Waterford-Limerick line with less than 5 motors and can only continue in service with 5 they are not allowed to start out in such conditions.

Presumably same with the 071s though the higher power would mean on 4 motors they'd be a bit more capable than a 001 on 4.

Interesting reading back through this thread, some interesting anecdotes and figures. It got me wondering about the ability some of the other classes to go faster than their rated speeds.

Based on that if an 89mph geared 071 could do 116mph and a 165km/h geared 201, 120mph, then what sort of speeds could the likes of a 141 or even an 'A' Class manage?

Presumably an 'A' could manage at least it's maximum speed on re-engining of 85mph but could they go faster? One of the uprated 1,650hp might have enough grunt for a 'ton' I would've thought.

Or an 89mph geared 141, possibly 89mph would be pushing it for a single 141 but a higher-powered 181 might be just about able with a very light load but a pair would have enough power to get into the 90s I'd think.

And is 96mph the overall Irish steam record or purely the record for a GSR B1a/800 Class?

6 minutes ago, BSGSV said:

The first two were loco-hauled, as JHB says, the latter railcars with two portions, one each for Galway and Westport, splitting/joining at Athlone. This train was unusual in travelling via Portarlington, when the rest went via Mullingar.

Thanks, did each railcar set have a buffet or only the Galway set?

7 minutes ago, BSGSV said:

Well, in fairness to JHB, that is the CIE date, and I've not seen similar for the UTA. CIE announced it was going to make the change earlier in 1965. I had thought end September/start October would mark the summer to winter timetable change.

That would seem logical.

2 hours ago, NIRCLASS80 said:

Every now and then I change the stock on my layout completely over to British rolling stock to enjoy my little collection of models. Hope someone enjoys. 
 

Like the 47/4 in large logo with a set of Sealink Mk1s, looks ace.

You scenics and backscene are beautifully done too.

Also like the dual 47/4 vs DBSO scene at the platform. Need to get myself a couple of "Dipsos" for my own layout plus about a million more 47s!

3 hours ago, Buz said:

Don't travel European 4th class NO seats the third class had the hard wooden benches.

regards John

At one point perhaps, but I have a book on European railways with a diagram of a German 4-wheeler fourth class vehicle with 3+3 wooden bench seating. The vehicle even has two centrally positioned toilets. I'd assume the vehicle dates from the 1920s, possibly the 1930s.

28 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

It was just a throwback to when there was 1, 2 or 3.....

The GSR abandoned second class in the 1920s, soon after its inception. Narrow gauge lines abandoned it early - although few ever had it to start with. The GNR did a few years later. But the NCC kept the three-class system until the late 1940s!

I think most of the continental European networks kept 3 classes into the 1950s, some possibly longer. I think Germany even had four classes - fourth being on rural branch lines consisting of unpadded wooden bench-equipped four wheelers.

The trouble with having too many classes is having to provide for catering facilities on longer journeys. I know that in Scotland the LNER had composite diners on the Edinburgh-Aberdeen expresses where seperate first and third diners would have been overkill but trying to provide for three classes must have been interesting for the NCC. Did they have any such thing as a tri-composite diner?

4 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

Interesting - I didn't have the exact date either. My guesstimation above is that the UTA were just a bit later? Early NIR tickets still had "second class" on them, I think. So that would make it 1967 or 1968 on the new NIR - can anyone confirm?

In terms of Craven livery, then, it may be taken that they ALL had "2" on their doors when new, and after 1965 - or, on first ever repaint if not before - these were painted out.

I've often wondered why they had the "2"s given CIÉ wasn't operating a 3 class system, surely they didn't think passengers would mistake the interiors for First Class?

5 hours ago, BSGSV said:

Second became standard from 20/09/65.

Now you've posted the correct date, I've no idea where I got my 1966 date from!

Interesting month to choose September, given most major changes generally happen with new timetables which are typically April/May/June.

Or in the case of First Class being rebranded Superstandard then new rolling stock.

1 minute ago, TimO said:

Of course, too busy looking for a lever. Also I thought vac brakes had a ‘string’ to pull but I don’t see one. 

Easily done! I've done that many times overlooking something because I've been expecting a particular version and the item in question has a variant/different type.

I know what you mean about the "strings" but I'm not sure everything had "strings" I think there were alternatives. In that respect I'm not sure what to look for though.

1 minute ago, TimO said:

This picture of a cattle wagon with vacuum brake clearly has no manual brake lever. Were these vac braked wagons all conversions from hand braked or were some built with vac brakes. Was the manual lever always removed on conversions. Also I notice that the vac brakes meant four brake shoes per side compared to one ( I think) per side on the hand braked wagons. The axle box and springing detail is also very clear in the photo. Your photo of the grain hopper wagon is an ex Northern wagon with N suffix that is different to most of the other types we see. A fabulous amount of detail in this thread.

 

 

Isn't that small wheel on the far right-hand bottom of the wagon a brake wheel?

7 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

Sounds about right. I think the UTA / new NIR changed "second" to "standard" about 1967.

I'm wondering if it might actually have been in Des Coakham's book on Irish carriages, because my only 1960s journal doesn't appear to mention the change but I've definitely seen it somewhere because I want to say something like the 4th April 1966 but I'm not at all certain on that date.

"A"s are Roots-blower, mechanically supercharged, 071s are turbocharged.

With mechanical supercharging, the speed of the engine directly effects the supercharging, with turbocharging it is the load on the engine instead.

This is taken from the article in IRRS Journal 074

2 hours ago, DiveController said:

Interesting to see this cravens coach, 1504, the coach leader as I recall with the second class numeral on the door. More familiar to most as the MM 1504TL 00 model also on BnT but without any class numbers. When was standard class adopted (when did they lose the door numbers as such)?

Did the first class coaches like 1149 retain a "1" on the doors even after they became 'Superstandards'?

Yes they did. The Cravens Superstandards, MkIId Superstandards and Composites all had a white "I" on the doors.

Second Class became Standard in I think 1966, I did see a date somewhere in the Journals.

10 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

Hi Hexagon

These trains were made up largely of laminates of several types built between 1951 (pre-“laminate” construction but similar appearance) to 1959/60. I have a pic somewhere of the inside of one of the studio coaches which was (in this case) an old wooden GSWR coach. I’ll try to find it.

There might have been an odd Bredin among them, but Park Royals would be less likely. 

The dining car could be an old GSWR one, or one of the new 2400 series.

A “tin van” or maybe a couple of them typically took up the rear. 

A train of this nature would be nice behind one of the forthcoming “A” class.

Motive power would be a specially cleaned up “A” for these. Like steam engines, Crossley “A”s didn’t stay clean too long but these trains (which I very vaguely remember) were pristine. 

Naturally, loco and coaches at the time you mention were green.
 

You mention timetables. If there is any year you’re interested in, PM me and I’ll scan images of it to you.

 

Thanks for that jhb, very interesting and insightful. I believe that at some point in the 1950s the Cú na Mara at least was a double railcar set (I think two 4-car splitting into Galway and Westport portions, so I wasn't sure if given the issues with 'A' Class reliability that situation was perpetuated into the 1960s.

Thanks for your kind offer re timetables, a year or so ago I found a website with a small collection of 1910s-1930s Bradshaws scans including ones for Ireland in 1938. I forgot to bookmark the site and have been unable to locate it since, I don't suppose you have 1938 at all?

I have a good selection of 1970s-1980s timetables but the other period which interests me is when steam was still king particularly the GSR B1a/800 Class post-war, so anything from when more normal service resumed in the early 1950s would be interesting as well to see what sort of timings services were getting, say 1951? I think things were relatively improved from the coal shortages by then.

I think I mentioned once before reading a dissemination of the 1933 GSR timetable and at first being rather shocked by the journey times and paucity of service but then thinking how damn' lucky we are to have such frequent and fast trains (relatively speaking) on both sides of the Irish Sea nowadays compared to some years in the past.