GNR built coaches that passed to the UTA?

[Lambeg man]

Help Request
 

Would any member of this site be able to advise if ANY of the ex-GNR carriages that came into the ownership of the RPSI in the 1970s, had ‘steel’ body panelling? If so, was there anything underneath the steel panelling such as ‘Masonite’ (a form of compressed wood perhaps similar to modern MDF) panels? Or indeed did some of the ex-GNR carriages still have purely ‘Masonite’ body panels? The GNR used steel panels from 1935 until 1938. By 1939, as an economy measure, new carriages were built with ‘Masonite’ body panelling.
 

The reason behind the question is that the UTA for their part did a fair bit of fiddling around with some ex-GNR coaches, such as fitting curved window frame corners in place of the GNR practice of squared window corners, removing wooden panelling, etc. I am therefore exploring the possibility they may have re-panelled some carriages.
 

Any information would be gratefully received via my e-mail address - many thanks in anticipation of your assistance.
Steve Rafferty

stephenrafferty@hotmail.co.uk

[jhb171achill]

On 8/3/2022 at 9:47 PM, Lambeg man said:

Help Request
 

Would any member of this site be able to advise if ANY of the ex-GNR carriages that came into the ownership of the RPSI in the 1970s, had ‘steel’ body panelling? If so, was there anything underneath the steel panelling such as ‘Masonite’ (a form of compressed wood perhaps similar to modern MDF) panels? Or indeed did some of the ex-GNR carriages still have purely ‘Masonite’ body panels? The GNR used steel panels from 1935 until 1938. By 1939, as an economy measure, new carriages were built with ‘Masonite’ body panelling.
 

The reason behind the question is that the UTA for their part did a fair bit of fiddling around with some ex-GNR coaches, such as fitting curved window frame corners in place of the GNR practice of squared window corners, removing wooden panelling, etc. I am therefore exploring the possibility they may have re-panelled some carriages.
 

Any information would be gratefully received via my e-mail address - many thanks in anticipation of your assistance.
Steve Rafferty

stephenrafferty@hotmail.co.uk

The ones I worked on had only UTA sheet steel panelling. Whatever might been be been underneath was long gone.

There were 9 & 114. The old nraa as JR third, 595, which fell to pieces from rot, I cannot comment on but I suspect it was the same.

By contrast, most of the RPSI’s ex-NCC stock had aluminum panelling put on by the UTA, ageing without anything older underneath.

[Mayner]

On 9/3/2022 at 10:47 AM, Lambeg man said:

Help Request
 

Would any member of this site be able to advise if ANY of the ex-GNR carriages that came into the ownership of the RPSI in the 1970s, had ‘steel’ body panelling? If so, was there anything underneath the steel panelling such as ‘Masonite’ (a form of compressed wood perhaps similar to modern MDF) panels? Or indeed did some of the ex-GNR carriages still have purely ‘Masonite’ body panels? The GNR used steel panels from 1935 until 1938. By 1939, as an economy measure, new carriages were built with ‘Masonite’ body panelling.
 

The reason behind the question is that the UTA for their part did a fair bit of fiddling around with some ex-GNR coaches, such as fitting curved window frame corners in place of the GNR practice of squared window corners, removing wooden panelling, etc. I am therefore exploring the possibility they may have re-panelled some carriages.
 

Any information would be gratefully received via my e-mail address - many thanks in anticipation of your assistance.
Steve Rafferty

stephenrafferty@hotmail.co.uk

Masonite is a US trade name for Tempered Hardboard, which would have fitted in with wartime & GNR(I) economy measures. Michael Baker described the relatively poor condition of the bodywork on recently withdrawn ex-GNR coaches in an early 1970s  magazine article or book on CIE. The GNR(I) appears to have used softwood framing in combination with hardboard paneling during and possibly following the War which would have lead to the relatively short life of modern GNR coaching stock.

Its possible the GSR re-paneled a pair of C&L Narrow Gauge coaches with a similar material in the late 1930s,  the re-paneled bodies were not fit for the Leitrim weather the material was described as compressed cardboard.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masonite. 

[Lambeg man]

On 13/3/2022 at 1:43 PM, jhb171achill said:

The ones I worked on had only UTA sheet steel panelling. Whatever might been be been underneath was long gone.

There were 9 & 114. The old nraa as JR third, 595, which fell to pieces from rot, I cannot comment on but I suspect it was the same.

By contrast, most of the RPSI’s ex-NCC stock had aluminum panelling put on by the UTA, ageing without anything older underneath.

 

10 hours ago, Mayner said:

Masonite is a US trade name for Tempered Hardboard, which would have fitted in with wartime & GNR(I) economy measures. Michael Baker described the relatively poor condition of the bodywork on recently withdrawn ex-GNR coaches in an early 1970s  magazine article or book on CIE. The GNR(I) appears to have used softwood framing in combination with hardboard paneling during and possibly following the War which would have lead to the relatively short life of modern GNR coaching stock.

Thanks to both of you for that. Below is a reply I received from a guy called Alan who worked on the relevant carriages in the 1970's. I have MY comments on what he wrote in red.

 

Hello Steve,
 

I am not sure if the information below will answer your questions or not but it is my recollection of the RPSI's GN coaches. All of the GNR coaches (except 50, the Directors' Saloon) purchased by the RPSI were vehicles which had been converted for use with AEC or BUT railcars. They were therefore modified to a greater or lesser extent. Some of the re-panelling in aluminium may date from this conversion and may have happened before the UTA.

Coach 114, for example is re-panelled in this style, yet was one of the vehicles which passed to CIE. I suspect "Masonite" is a brand name. Railwaymen generally referred to it as "Hardboard" paneling, as indeed it was. It was not very durable, and many vehicles panelled with it developed alarming looking bulges and ripples. Nevertheless, several vehicles survived to the end with this type of panelling.

All of these GN vehicles had curved corners to the window openings to accommodate rubber beading for mounting the glass. With the aluminum panelled coaches the curves were integral with the panels themselves. With steel or hardboard panelled coaches there was usually a separate steel sub frame round the window opening.

Here is what I remember about the RPSI Vehicles:

231 / 562 Brake First Corridor: Aluminium panelled - most likely a UTA job. Horizontally aligned tongue & groove boarding underneath panelling.

227 / 561 First Corridor: Steel panels (a few aluminium replacements) with separate steel window surrounds. Horizontally aligned tongue & groove boarding underneath panelling.

88 / 552 Dining Car: Aluminium panelled. (Recorded as being steel panelled when built.) 

176 / 583 Open Third: Aluminium panelled. There was vertically aligned tongue & groove boarding underneath the panelling (The original K 23’s were all built with this type of panelling. When they were rebuilt as K 15, it is recorded that the new panelling was placed over the original. I presumed the ‘new’ panelling was Masonite, but it is possible the GNR used aluminium.) - this coach was a conversion from a K 23 workmens' coach.

98 / 581  Open Third: Retained hardboard panelling, with separate steel window surrounds.

9 / 586 Open Third (AEC Driving Trailer): Aluminium panelled. 

127 / 556 / 727 Open Third (originally buffet car): Aluminum panels above the waistline, steel panels below. The steel panels were most likely an NIR era repair. (It was built as a K 15 in 1943, then rebuilt as a K 23 Buffet Car in 1951 and fitted to work with AEC Railcars. In 1957 it was fitted to run with BUT Railcars and stayed as such until 1966 when the UTA removed the Bar fittings and it became an open second. Then in 1969 it was fitted to run with the 70 class set working the 'Enterprise' roster as a support trailer for the Buffet Car. So take your pick as to when the body panelling was modified!)

114 Brake Third: Aluminum panelled.

? / 595 Brake Third - Some aluminium and some steel panels

 

Other GNR coaches not purchased by the RPSI:

554 Dining Car: (Built 1950) - Retained hardboard panelling

551 Dining Car: (Built 1936 and recorded as having been built with steel panels. This particular vehicles got a serious bash around at Duncrue Street in the early 1960's - windows altered, droplights removed, doors panelled over, etc.) Aluminium Panelled

400 Open Third: (Original K 15, built 1935 and recorded as being built with steel panels) Steel panelled. This coach remained in steam hauled stock and was not converted for railcar use.

584 Open Third: (Built 1942 as a K 23 'Workmen's coach. Rebuilt as a K 15 in 1947. Fitted to work with BUT Railcars in 1957) Aluminium panelled.

 

This question was raised as part of my research into the subject of GNR Carriages. I had read ONE (and only one) source who stated that in 1957/58 the intermediates being fitted to work within the then new BUT trains were re-panelled with "steel" panelling. From what Allan has written it is likely they were re-panelled but with aluminium, not with steel. In fact some may have already been either re-panelled with aluminium prior to 1957 or indeed been built with aluminium panelling after the War. However that does not explain the Diner which became No. 554 still having 'Masonite' panelling by the time of withdrawal in 1973.

Such is the fun of research!!!

 

Edited March 14, 2022 by Lambeg man