Fitted goods stock livery

[David Holman]

This side of the water, fitted wagons (those with vacuum brakes, able to run in passenger trains and at higher speeds) were painted in bauxite, as opposed to grey for unfitted stock.

 Was there a similar system in Ireland, or did it very from one company to another? I believe the GNRI wagons were treated this way, but what about others?

 Am interested in all periods, but especially the early 1900s and the 1950s.

 

[jhb171achill]

37 minutes ago, David Holman said:

This side of the water, fitted wagons (those with vacuum brakes, able to run in passenger trains and at higher speeds) were painted in bauxite, as opposed to grey for unfitted stock.

 Was there a similar system in Ireland, or did it very from one company to another? I believe the GNRI wagons were treated this way, but what about others?

 Am interested in all periods, but especially the early 1900s and the 1950s.

 

It varied. For a time the NCC had something like this, as did the GNR, but no other railway did. If you travelled here in the 1970-76 period you'd see a mix of grey and brown wagons. This was simply an old and new livery; everything was grey until 1970, and brown started creeping in after that. By 1976 when the last loose-coupled goods trains were running (other than a few North Wall transfers which went on slighlty longer), about two thirds of the floeet was brown, but a good third still grey. It would not matter whether they were fitted or not.

The very earliest fitted wagons were also grey, but most were introduced after 1970 so were brown when new - but because that was the livery, not because they were fitted.

As an aside, amongst the grey ones, a very occasional one was still adorned by a flying snail rather then a roundel / broken wheel at the end (mid 70s).

[Mayner]

To add another twist "traditional" wagons such as H & Pal Vans ran with their vacuum brake gear isolated during the final years of loose coupled operation. A lot of fitted wagons stored awaiting scrapping at Mullingar in the early 80s were neatly stenciled "Vac brake isolated", the neat stencil lettering indicates that the vac brakes were isolated as wagons went through in-service repairs at Limerick of Inchacore,  rather than in preparation for a final movement to Mullingar for scrapping.

[David Holman]

Many thanks, both of you. 

However, as a further question - in steam days, on mixed trains, presumably any unfitted stock had to be put behind the coaches, with a brake van bringing up the rear and if unfitted wagons were in front of the passenger coach, then customers were not (officially) allowed?

 Also, could a mixed train do without a brake van if all wagons were fitted and provided there was a guard's compartment somewhere?

[Mayner]

15 hours ago, David Holman said:

Many thanks, both of you. 

However, as a further question - in steam days, on mixed trains, presumably any unfitted stock had to be put behind the coaches, with a brake van bringing up the rear and if unfitted wagons were in front of the passenger coach, then customers were not (officially) allowed?

 Also, could a mixed train do without a brake van if all wagons were fitted and provided there was a guard's compartment somewhere?

Theoretically a mixed train with all vehicles fitted is classed as a Passenger rather than a Mixed Train, there was some discussion on RM Web on whether the Bala-Blaenau Ffestiniog branch train that ran with a single Presflo attached (no brake van)  between Bala and Trawsfynydd was classed as a passenger or a mixed.

What happened in practice depended a lot on local 'custom and practice" outside the sight of authority at Kingsbridge let alone the Railway Inspectorate, in effect the rules meant little on short country branch-lines including those not too far from Head Office 

There is a 1939 photo of a Mixed train apparently waiting to depart Mountmellick for the main line at Portlaoise with a pair of unfitted wagons coupled between the loco and the two 6w coaches, the Mountmellick Branch was short and relatively flat.

There is a similar GSR photo of a Mixed train on the longer more steeply graded Fermoy-Mitchellstown Branch with what appears to be an unfitted GSWR convertible wagons sandwitched between a 6w full brake coupled to the loco and the remainder of the train consist a 6w composite and 6w Brake with birdcage lookout, presumably the Guard travelled in the brake at the rear of the train.

 From photos GSR/CIE appeared more observant about marshalling unfitted wagons behind passenger stock on short branch lines on other sections usually with the unfitted wagons marshalled between the passenger coaches and the 6W passenger brake at the rear of the train, from photos marshalling a single unfitted wagon behind the passenger brake at the rear of the train was fairly common, though I have a photo of an early 60s Sligo-Mullingar Night mail with what appear to be 4 unfitted H Vans marshalled at the rear of the train behind the passenger rated stock no brake van!

[jhb171achill]

1 hour ago, Mayner said:

Theoretically a mixed train with all vehicles fitted is classed as a Passenger rather than a Mixed Train, there was some discussion on RM Web on whether the Bala-Blaenau Ffestiniog branch train that ran with a single Presflo attached (no brake van)  between Bala and Trawsfynydd was classed as a passenger or a mixed.

What happened in practice depended a lot on local 'custom and practice" outside the sight of authority at Kingsbridge let alone the Railway Inspectorate, in effect the rules meant little on short country branch-lines including those not too far from Head Office 

There is a 1939 photo of a Mixed train apparently waiting to depart Mountmellick for the main line at Portlaoise with a pair of unfitted wagons coupled between the loco and the two 6w coaches, the Mountmellick Branch was short and relatively flat.

There is a similar GSR photo of a Mixed train on the longer more steeply graded Fermoy-Mitchellstown Branch with what appears to be an unfitted GSWR convertible wagons sandwitched between a 6w full brake coupled to the loco and the remainder of the train consist a 6w composite and 6w Brake with birdcage lookout, presumably the Guard travelled in the brake at the rear of the train.

 From photos GSR/CIE appeared more observant about marshalling unfitted wagons behind passenger stock on short branch lines on other sections usually with the unfitted wagons marshalled between the passenger coaches and the 6W passenger brake at the rear of the train, from photos marshalling a single unfitted wagon behind the passenger brake at the rear of the train was fairly common, though I have a photo of an early 60s Sligo-Mullingar Night mail with what appear to be 4 unfitted H Vans marshalled at the rear of the train behind the passenger rated stock no brake van!

Indeed; Kingsbridge brass would have had kittens if they knew, as the instructions were - rightly of course - VERY strict! As per your variations, I've seen pics of a single loose-coupled wagon stuck on the back of an AEC set on the Kerry road, and similar elsewhere.

Naturally, of course, all of the above were very much the exception rather than the rule, but they did happen.

17 hours ago, David Holman said:

Many thanks, both of you. 

However, as a further question - in steam days, on mixed trains, presumably any unfitted stock had to be put behind the coaches, with a brake van bringing up the rear and if unfitted wagons were in front of the passenger coach, then customers were not (officially) allowed?

 Also, could a mixed train do without a brake van if all wagons were fitted and provided there was a guard's compartment somewhere?

Normal was loco, coaches, unfitted wagons, van. I'd say in GSWR / MGWR days, this was always the case. The old companies were extremely strict.

[David Holman]

Excellent stuff - many thanks, as ever!

The reason for the request is I'm grappling with a couple short mixed trains on Northport Quay. My 1900s period is a 6w brake 3rd with a semi and a brake van, though was wondering if the brake 3rd could go at the end, to make shunting easier. There again, if the semi was fitted, that solves the problem anyway.

 Trouble is, did any of the semis ever get vacuum brakes - or indeed any early vans when used for fish traffic? Which takes me back to the original question about livery. MGWR horse boxes were fitted and also painted in passenger brown livery. Would a fitted fish van have got the same treatment? A GSWR fitted fish van in their very dark passenger purple/black seems unlikely though.

 However, seems like I could get away with an unfitted van in front of the passenger train on a short branch like NPQ, while a 1950s SLNCR consist of a brake 3rd and a couple of fitted GNRI vans won't be a problem.

 Much easier on Fintonagh, where all Clogher stock was braked, while when I go down the Swilly/Donegal route the same applies - not that the Swilly bothered much with brakes from what I've read.

[Mayner]

Examples of coaches marshalled at the rear of passenger/mixed trains

There are some very interesting photos in the Waterford Museum collection of mixed trains crossing the Dungarvan causeway all with the coaches marshalled at the rear of the train behind the wagons

https://www.waterfordmuseum.ie/exhibit/web/DisplayImage/K04VqVTJREsmM/1/Dungarvan_To_Waterford_Train.html

UK1556 GSWR 4-4-0 4 Covered wagons, 1--6wCoach, 1 Bogie Coach, 6w Full Brake

EK196 possibly a stock special. WDLR 0-4-2 ? approx. 15 convertible wagons with several 6w coaches coupled at the rear.

EK10 WDLR 0-4-2?  Convertible wagons and what appears to be a mixture of 4 & 6w coaches and a carriage truck coupled at the rear.

Its possible the latter two photos were taken before the GSWR takeover of the Waterford-Dungarvan-Lismore line as part of the Rosslare route in the early 1900s, but the practice of marshalling coaches behind the wagons seems to have persisted into GSWR days. 

Piped braked Convertible Wagons.

I have been unable to obtain specific information on MGWR wagons fitted with Vac brakes its possible that some were fitted or piped for use in passenger or mail trains. In 1893 the MGWR had 30 Fish Vans, 24 Carriage Trucks & 1 Mortuary Van piped only out of a total stock of 382 items of coaching stock.

I mislaid the section of the Padraig O'Cuimin MGWR Wagon Stock paper relevant to Convertible & Cattle Wagons. The 10 Butter Wagons introduced in 1900-1 were "piped" for running with passenger trains.

None of the 10T Covered Goods Wagons introduced after 1915 are listed as "piped" or fitted with Vac Brakes  

MGWR Fish Van Livery

MGWR Fish Vans were painted brown "Initials and number disposed either side of the double door on the second plank down from the ventilation louvres" "On the bottom plank centred under the above mentioned lettering, was in italic letters "To run with passenger trains (Under MGWR, and "To carry five tons" under the number. This inscription was also carried by carriage trucks" Padraig O'Cuimin MGWR Carriage Stock 2 IRRS Journal No56 Oct 1971.

  A Fish Van/Meat Box with this form of lettering is just about visible behind 8 St Patrick in 

https://transportsofdelight.smugmug.com/RAILWAYS/IRISH-RAILWAYS/MIDLAND-GREAT-WESTERN-RAILWAY/i-KD7xbhM/A

 

[David Holman]

Wonderful information! Many thanks John. Never ceases to amaze me what is out there.

Edited May 9, 2023 by David Holman