Waterford - Limerick Improvements…?

[226 Abhann na Suire]

Not sure if a thread already exists for this line (if so I’m really sorry Mods and could you please move this post to that thread) but I thought no harm in having one!

I’m just thinking out loud about what can be done to increase line capacity and usage. Ideally services would be expanded to Limerick Colbert rather than just the junction and a service would leave both Waterford and Limerick with a pre-09:00 arrival at each end and a similar post-17:30 departure in the evening (this, in my opinion, should be the standard for all lines in Ireland, branch and intercity included…) However how achievable is this?

I did a mock timetable and it seems that with the addition of a passing loop and second platform at Cahir (or even just a loop outside of Cahir), the following can be achieved:

A train would leave both Waterford and Limerick Colbert respectively at around 06:00 and the two trains can pass each other in Cahir. The trains would provide a connection at Limerick Junction for:

• Passengers from Waterford for Cork would join 07:00 Dublin to Cork (which calls at Limerick Jnct at 08:32)
• Passengers from Tipperary, Clonmel (etc) for Dublin would join the 07:00 Cork to Dublin (which calls at Limerick Junction at 08:01).  
• Passengers from Limerick for Cork would join the 06:00 Dublin to Cork (which calls at Limerick Junction at 07:26) or would simply get the 06:55 Limerick - Limerick Jnct for a better connection time. 
• Passengers from Cork for Limerick would join from the 07:00 Cork to Dublin (which calls at Limerick Junction at 08:01).

These trains will arrive into the two cities respectively at around 8:30 each morning, before the beginning of the working day.

In the evening, the story is much the same with trains leaving both cities at around 18:00 and once again passing one another at Cahir. Each train would provide connections in Limerick Jnct:

• Passengers from Cork for Waterford would join the Waterford train from the 17:25 Cork to Dublin (which calls at Limerick Junction at 18:23)
• Passengers from Dublin for Tipperary, Clonmel (etc) would join the Waterford train from the 17:00 Dublin to Cork (which calls at Limerick Junction at 18:27).  
• Passengers from Cork for Limerick would join the Limerick train from the 18:25 Cork to Dublin (which calls at Limerick Junction at 19:26)
• Passengers from Limerick to Cork would join the 17:00 Dublin to Cork (which calls at Limerick Junction at 18:27). 

Both services would then reach Limerick and Waterford at around 20:20 or so each evening

Let me know if anyone has any thoughts on this, if it seems feasible, etc. Opinions and criticism (constructive please…!) would also be much appreciated. 

Thanks all,

 Oisín  :))

[Barl]

Interesting thoughts there. It would definitely be great to see an extension of the current timetable, particularly between LJ and Waterford. The line could definitely be utilised more than it currently is, given that Limerick and Waterford both have large colleges and quite a few commuters. 

I was only having a discussion last week about whether the semaphores are preventing increased services on the LJ to Waterford line but this doesn't seem to be the case - it may require the cabin at Cahir to be reopened and manned but I can't see that being much of an issue. I'm not sure if the number of level crossings (manned and unmanned) is one factor preventing a service being run during rush hour. 

Would it be possible to adjust the timetable slightly to have the crossover at Clonmel, giving that it already has an operational loop (and platform/footbridge)? This could also tie in with the Bus Eireann service that stops in Clonmel (no idea of times though!)

Cahir would need a new loop re-installed and significant works to the existing loop platform - I can't remember if the footbridge is still there! 

All hypothetical but it would be nice to see

[Mayner]

Interesting the way Waterford-Limerick and the Nenagh branch have been virtually ignored by the powers that be within the NTA and CIE/IE. Striking contrast with the effort that went into retaining and building up passenger traffic between Limerick and Ennis and the effort that went into  establishing passenger services to Athenry and Galway. It almost looks like Tipperary and Waterford just don't have the same level of political influence as Clare and Galway.

The present service appears to be a throw back to CIE's policy of the 60s which focused on improving rail services on the radial routes from Dublin with CIE Expressway services covering cross country routes such as Limerick-Waterford and routes where road services could operate a more direct route e.g. Limerick-Nenagh-Portlaoise-Dublin or Clonmel-Kilkenny-Dublin. CIE were refused permission when the applied to close Limerick Junction-Waterford-Rosslare passenger services during the 70s and have done nothing to promote or inprove services on the line for the past 50 years.

The two Strategic Rail Reviews and NTA seem to focus mainly on big high profile projects, with little apparrent interest at local or central government level at improving services at fairly minimal costs on an underused line like the Waterford and Limerick, though there was sufficient local interest/pressure to split the morning Limerick-Ballybroply at Nenagh several years ago to operate a Nenagh-Limerick commuter train with minimal investment in signaling. Though a local politician was criticised by the press for wasting public money by diverting a Limerick-Dublin railcar service to run via Nenagh.

Looking at the practicalities running additional Waterford-Limerick or Ballybrophy services may involve recruiting and training additional train crews, its possible the persent timetables on both lines are based on Train Crew rosters rather than passenger demand, many branch line passenger services in steam days were based on rostering a single train crew for an 8hr shift resulting in the final train running in early afternoon.  Re-opening crossing loops and closing/automating level crossings would require substantial investment and committment to keeping lines open, over 40 years ago British Rail invested in low cost options for signalling and crossing upgrades on lightly trafficked routes in rural areas of England, Scotland and Wales that continue in use to the present, big difference between Ireland and the rest of the world is that outside of Ireland the local and regional councils are directly involved in the provision and funding of local rail transport. In some areas the trains are operate on contract to the local or regional council

[jhb171achill]

Excellent....

It is my understanding that currently the entire service is worked by one driver, and that's two return trips a day. If this is correct - and even if it isn't, it could be - that suggests that with only one more driver, four traina  day would be feasible.

But why stop at Limerick - why not include the Galway service? Surely, there is increased potential for a service like this - especially with students in mind if that is the case - if it were to operate Waterford - Limerick - Galway?

Four operations a day each way over that while route, plus several others as at present Limerick - Galway, should surely be achieveable and also desirable. I feel that this would provide a major boost over this whole route, at comparatively very little outlay other than the restoration of a crossing point at Cahir. And put ICRs on it, not those god-awful tin cans with pixie seats and yellow poles that they do use.

Hopefully the advent of the Dart+ and new Enterprise trains might somehow result, as a by-product, in a few spare ICRs.

[226 Abhann na Suire]

On 12/10/2024 at 3:25 PM, jhb171achill said:

Excellent....

It is my understanding that currently the entire service is worked by one driver, and that's two return trips a day. If this is correct - and even if it isn't, it could be - that suggests that with only one more driver, four traina  day would be feasible.

But why stop at Limerick - why not include the Galway service? Surely, there is increased potential for a service like this - especially with students in mind if that is the case - if it were to operate Waterford - Limerick - Galway?

Four operations a day each way over that while route, plus several others as at present Limerick - Galway, should surely be achieveable and also desirable. I feel that this would provide a major boost over this whole route, at comparatively very little outlay other than the restoration of a crossing point at Cahir. And put ICRs on it, not those god-awful tin cans with pixie seats and yellow poles that they do use.

Hopefully the advent of the Dart+ and new Enterprise trains might somehow result, as a by-product, in a few spare ICRs.

I do like the idea of Galway-Limerick-Waterford services however I feel that morning services should not be linked this way necessarily. Maybe a Galway-Waterford and vice versa morning route for a pre-9am arrival if feasible (although unfortunately I can’t see that it would be…) but in addition to individual Limerick-Galway and Waterford-Limerick (and vice versa respectively) pre-9am arrival services.

Having the morning Waterford-Limerick services extend to a pre-9am Galway arrival allows passengers from Waterford to access Galway (a small number I’d imagine) and Limerick-Galway passengers too but would leave Waterford passengers for Limerick stranded in Limerick at 7am… and the same with Galway-Limerick passengers on a Galway-Waterford service…

Maybe an idea would be simultaneous Waterford to Limerick and Limerick to Galway trains in the morning with pre-9am arrivals, (and the same in reverse for the evening rush) but then have the middle of the day trains, through run between Waterford and Galway…?

I do agree wholeheartedly though about the need for throughout-the-day services, it is something which is not too common on the 3 branches (there is none on the Waterford Limerick line and barely any on the Nenagh branch) and something which is very needed. The draft timetable I included at the start of this thread was specifically for pre-9am arrivals at both ends but obviously throughout-the-day services are needed, otherwise communities are not linked and people outside of 9-5 workers are completely uncatered for.

As a Waterford native with a beloved grandmother of whom I see far too little, living in Galway, I love the idea of direct Waterford and Galway services but I feel that the amount of day commuters between the two cities would be way too low to warrant a specific pre-9am arrival service to both. However I believe that a Waterford-Galway and a Galway-Waterford service should operate on Sundays and Friday evenings for getting college students between the 3 very large universities on the line and home. This would be a very useful opportunity for such a service I think

Edited Sunday at 23:57 by 226 Abhann na Suire

[jhb171achill]

3 minutes ago, 226 Abhann na Suire said:

I do like the idea of Galway-Limerick-Waterford services however I feel that morning services should not be linked this way necessarily. Maybe a Galway-Waterford and vice versa morning route for a pre-9am arrival if feasible (although unfortunately I can’t see that it would be…) but in addition to individual Limerick-Galway and Waterford-Limerick (and vice versa respectively) pre-9am arrival services.

Having the morning Waterford-Limerick services extend to a pre-9am Galway arrival allows passengers from Waterford to access Galway (a small number I’d imagine) and Limerick-Galway passengers too but would leave Waterford passengers for Limerick stranded in Limerick at 7am… and the same with Galway-Limerick passengers on a Galway-Waterford service…

Maybe an idea would be simultaneous Waterford to Limerick and Limerick to Galway trains in the morning with pre-9am arrivals, (and the same in reverse for the evening rush) but then have the middle of the day trains, through run between Waterford and Galway…?

I like the idea of Waterford and Galway services but I feel that the amount of day commuters between the two cities would be way too low to warrant a specific pre-9am arrival service to both. However I believe that a Waterford-Galway and a Galway-Waterford service should operate on Sundays and Friday evenings for getting college students between the 3 very large universities on the line and home. This would be a very useful opportunity for such a service I think

Agreed! Through services during the middle of the day but commuter-orientated ones earlier.