CIE 20' Container Flat Wagons

[Mol_PMB]

On my frequent childhood trips to Ireland, I distinctly remember the 4-wheel container flat wagons which carried just one 20' container. So different to the BR Freightliner 60' wagons I was used to in East Anglia! Of course CIE had bogie container wagons too, but this topic is about the 4-wheelers.

Two of my Christmas presents to myself are on this similar theme - wagon kits for 20' container flats. Sitting on my table at the moment are:

• A sheet of etched brass which should build into three 25436 series flats, from @Mayner of this parish.
• Two resin kits for the 27101 series flats, from @leslie10646 of this parish.

Many thanks to both of you for these kits!

 

Before starting to build anything, I thought I should do a bit of research and share it here. This was also motivated by an arm injury that is healing, but which has curtailed my physical modelling for the last couple of weeks. I can still drive a computer though.

So this topic will look initially at the 25436 series flats, and then the 27101 series flats.

It could be taken further, as many of both these wagon types were converted to other types later in life. There were also 22' container flats in the 27301 series although these were significantly different in design.

 

I should also note that the first CIE 20' flat wagons were the 25201-25435 series, built in 1962, 12 ton capacity, 20'0" over headstocks, 11'0" wheelbase. They had a conventional underframe with plain bearings, and were vacuum brake fitted but with the handwheel brake similar to the fitted H vans. Later some were repurposed to PW department wagons and renumbered as 24516-24566. I have already dealt with them in the thread linked below, which is worth a look first as they were the immediate predecessors of the 25436 series I'll write about in this thread.

 

[Mol_PMB]

Considering first what we think of as the 25436 series, Pender&Richards (1967) list these wagons as:

• 25436, built 1965, Prototype ore, 20 ton capacity, 20'0" over headstocks, vacuum brake [it appears that this was later converted to a flat to match the rest of the series].
• 25437-25980 Flat, built 1966-67, 20 ton capacity, 20'0" over headstocks, vacuum brake

'The latest flats numbered from 25437 onwards are fully vacuum braked, a small number having roller bearing axleboxes.'

 

The 1975 WTT lists them as:

• 25436-25982 Flat, 20 tonne capacity, 8 tonnes tare

Note the addition of 25981 and 25982 to the number series; perhaps they hadn't quite finished building the last batch when Pender&Richards went to press. Assuming the number series was continuous, it was a large batch of 547 wagons in total.

The 1978, 1985, 1986 and 1990 WTTs list them in the same way.

 

Doyle&Hirsch 1978 and 1981 have a photo of 25819 carrying chaired sleepers, and another photo of an unidentified wagon of this batch carrying a tar container. Both the pictured wagons have roller bearings. They are listed as:

• 25436-25982 Flat wagon 4-wheel, introduced 1966, 12 ton capacity, wheelbase 12', weight 8 tons, hand and vacuum brakes, fitted with steel floors.

These flat wagons were introduced after the first two batches of cement bubbles, and used a similar 20' long, 12' wheelbase, 20t capacity chassis.

As I described in the thread on the bubbles, the brake gear designs were evolving in the mid-1960s with at least 4 variants used on the bubbles: https://irishrailwaymodeller.com/topic/17539-bubble-muddle-toil-and-trouble/

Needless to say, the flat wagons used yet another variant of brake gear!

 

As alluded to in the Pender&Richards listing, some of these flats had plain bearings and others had roller bearings. There were more variants among the fleet too. Because so many were significantly modified later in their lives, it's quite difficult to work back to how they were originally.

At the time these wagons were being built, the ISO standards for containers were newly published and intermodal transport was developing rapidly. CIE did the right thing in choosing a 20' x 8' deck size for the wagons, but initially the containers they were used with did not have ISO standard corner castings, and the early wagons may have had non-standard locating features too.

Initially, it seems that many were dedicated to Guinness traffic using half-height containers with non-ISO fittings, as illustrated superbly in Brian Flannigan's photo on Flickr here:

The open containers were numbered separately from the wagons; both were intially painted in all over grey livery.

Here are some more images of these wagons with the matching non-ISO open top containers, linked to the IRRS Flickr archive (you'll need to be a member to see them). A pair at Mallow, one with plain bearings and one roller bearings:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53570651748

A rake at Heuston showing containers being transhipped, again a mix of bearing types:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53509032356

A long rake of almost brand new wagons and containers at Heuston; there are some detail variations among the wagons:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53526428997

A 1970 view where one wagon has received a coat of brown paint; the others and all the containers remain grey:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53508097962

This image from Ernie on Flickr is from 1978 so a bit later; the container has been modified but the wagon is still fairly unchanged:

This image in the IRRS library is rather interesting as it shows one of these wagons carrying a pre-ISO container of the more traditonal type, which is securely chained down:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53570450071

This is a much later image I found elsewhere on this forum, which shows the wagon underframe fittings rather well, with an ISO container loaded:

• Just above each axlebox there is a pivoted spigot. In this image they are horizontal, but they could be rotated up to restrain a load such as a non-ISO container or anything else you might want to put on a flat wagon.
• Under each container door in this image, there is a large tray welded to the solebar, perhaps seen more clearly in the previous (Ernie) image. I think these trays were intended for holding chains, straps, shackles etc used for securing non-ISO containers or other non-standard loads. 'Chain pockets' were standard features on traditional conflat wagons.
• Between the spigots and the chain pockets there are large eyes protruding from the solebar. These appear on many CIE 4-wheel wagons of the period, not just the container flats, but I'm not sure exactly what they were intended for.

Not all wagons of the 25436 series had these features; the early photos indicate that they were never fitted to some wagons, whilst they may have been later removed from others.

With no bodywork and the solebar very 'busy' with all this stuff, there wasn't a good place to paint the wagon number and other technical data. The number was often painted on the edge of a chain pocket in rather small numerals.

 

When these wagons were built, the standard height for an ISO container was 8'0" and the floor height was suitable to carry that within the CIE loading gauge. However, within a few years the 8'6" container height became standard and later there were 9'6" high containers too. Neither of these could be carried on a 25436 series container flat; the 8'6" problem was quickly solved with the 27301 series flats and the 40' bogie flats, but I think it wasn't until the CPWs were introduced that 9'6" containers could be carried country-wide. Consequently, the large fleet of 25436 flats became unsuitable for carrying most shipping containers (though they were fine for the half-height Guinness containers and any 8' high boxes).

But in the meantime, I'd invite you to click on this link to see a very interesting photo (to wagon nerds like me) from Jonathan Allen on Flickr. It's worth a good zoom in, because it shows the evolution of the CIE 4-wheel container flat designs through the 1960s and early 1970s..

https://www.flickr.com/photos/152343870@N07/49750786666

Marshalled between the H vans there are 3 container flats, each carrying a half-height container of Guinness:

• The nearest one is a 25201 series wagon, the predecessors with wheel handbrake and 11' wheelbase, max load 12t.
• The middle one is a 25436 series wagon, with its very 'busy' solebar, 12' wheelbase and 20t capacity.
• The third one is a 27301 series wagon, 22'6" long with a 14' wheelbase, and designed with a lower deck height for 8'6" containers.

 

Again from Jonathan Allen on Flickr, this shows how an 8' container on a 25436 series flat (the more distant wagon) is the same overall height as an 8'6" container on a 27301 series flat (the nearer two wagons):

https://www.flickr.com/photos/152343870@N07/49888330362

Many of the 25436 series flats were converted into other things. In the next post I'll look at some that survived.

[Mol_PMB]

Here are some of my own photos from the early 2000s. Firstly, here is 25533 and if I recall correctly it was in the sidings at Grand Canal Dock for several years in the late 1990s and early 2000s. The 98th wagon of the batch, it still has plan bearings but has either lost (or never had) the chain pockets and pivoted spigots. An interesting feature of these wagons was that there were two brake shoes, both on the same side (cement bubbles had 4 brake shoes, or even 8 on the first batch as built). Here we are looking at the side with the brakes; the vee hanger is slightly offset to the left of centre and the vacuum cylinder is on this side. Referring back to the three photos in the previous post, they all show the unbraked side, with the vee hanger offset to the right, no vacuum cylinder and no brake shoes.

Also of note is the chequerplate floor with its angle-iron edges; in this case the number and overhaul data is painted on the angle-iron. Subsequent container flats didn't have floors at all, as they were only designed to carry loads on the ISO spigots on each corner.

Lurking in the background of this photo at Limerick in the early 2000s are a couple more, unidentifiable I'm afraid. The one on the left still has its chain pockets and pivoted spigots, while the one on the right does not. The one on the left sows the arrangement of levers on the brake cross-shaft better than some images - see the cruel zoom below. Note that the handbrake is applied.

 

Now to some lightly modified wagons, still basically flats but with some extra features. Firstly here are two views of 25557 modified as a wheelset carrier and seen at Limerick works. This shows the underframe details and the braked side quite well. This wagon has roller bearings and no longer has chain pockets or pivoted spigots (maybe it never did). The ISO spigots have been adapted as shackle mountings for securing the load.

Here's 25637, another wheelset/bogie carrier seen at Cork. The unbraked side this time.

And finally for now, 25653 which has been converted to carry the later style of Guinness cages by the addition of more ISO spigots. This one has required a small chassis extension at each end to prevent the load overhanging the ends of the wagon:

As far as I am aware, none of this series of wagon was modified with extra spigots to carry 10' containers. It was either the original 1x20' box, or 3xGuinness cages.

[Mol_PMB]

The 25436 series flats also seem to have found brief use carrying pallets and palletised goods in open-top containers, as shown by these mid-1970s photos by Jonathan Allen and the IRRS archive on Flickr. I think this is fertiliser, and presumably this traffic was transferred to the dedicated palletised fertiliser wagons when they were introduced:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/152343870@N07/40234864872

https://www.flickr.com/photos/152343870@N07/40234864722

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53527323416

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511479228

We've already seen that the mechanical engineers adopted a few for moving wheelsets and bogies around; here's another variant on that theme by Jonathan Allen at Inchicore in the late 1980s:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/152343870@N07/52043022146

But the S&T people took a lot more wagons for their cable-ploughing train which was involved in many resignalling projects. Here are some early 1980s photos by Jonathan Allen and the IRRS archive on Flickr:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/152343870@N07/50880724581

https://www.flickr.com/photos/152343870@N07/49565356217

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53527641434/

 

[Mol_PMB]

Bearing in mind that there were over 500 of the 25436 series flats built, what happened to the rest? Well my understanding is that most were 'kitbashed' into other wagon types such as beet wagons, pallet cement wagons etc. I don't have any official data though - can anyone else fill in this part of the story?

As far as I can tell the 25436 series all had 'W' iron axleguards rather than the plain triangular plate type, which may be a useful spotting feature for later re-use. For example, this tank wagon 26647 could be on a 25436 series chassis:

 

 

[Mol_PMB]

Next up, the 27101 series of 20' container flats, which were an incremental development of the 2546 series.

Too new to appear in  Pender&Richards (1967), the 1975 WTT lists them as:

• 27101-27300 Flat, 20 tonne capacity, 7 tonnes tare

It seems that omitting the floor and its supports, the chain pockets and pivoted spigots had reduced the tare weight by about a tonne compared to the 25436 series.

The 1978 WTT lists them in the same way, but by 1985 they had been lumped in with the later (and quite different) 27301 series. This continued in the 1986 and 1990 WTTs.

 

Doyle&Hirsch 1978 and 1981 have a photo of an unidentified wagon of this series carrying a Guinness cage (old type) and list them as follows:

• 27101-27300 Flat wagon 4-wheel, introduced 1970, 12 ton capacity, wheelbase 12', weight 7 tons, hand and vacuum brakes.

 

All of these wagons had roller bearings from the start, and they had triangular plate axleguards rather than the W-shape of the 25436 series. Without a floor or supporting angle iron, and with the chain pockets and pivoted spigots omitted, the solebars had a much 'cleaner' appearance.

This excellent photo from Brian Flannigan on Flickr shows 27109 in 1971 when it was still fairly new:

Also from Brian and dated 1971, here's 27190. Note that both of these are classified 'LA', and that these photos show the braked and unbraked sides. The brake arrangement appears to be the same as on the 25436 series:

As can be seen from these photos, these wagons were built new in red/brown livery rather than the grey of their predecessors. Note also that the bufferbeams are the same 8' width as the container load, and protrude a good few inches beyond the solebars.

In the IRRS Flickr archive, this is a great photo of 27192 at Mullingar in 1986 which shows the brake gear very clearly. Note that there are three Vee hangers.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53509438595

This is another good low-angle shot from Jonathan Allen on Flickr dated 1975:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/152343870@N07/40292795622

 

[Mol_PMB]

With only 200 built, these were scarcer than the previous series but still more numerous than the cement bubbles - just less obvious!

Going back to my holiday snaps, here's a late survivor in the foreground at Limerick Junction; not the best photo but the ISO spigots, lack of floor and plate axleguards confirm that it is a 27101 series:

Also at Limerick Junction, this one has been somewhat modified:

Here's the other side of the black one, trying to hide:

 

I suspect many of these were modified into other wagon types, but again I don't know the exact details. Looking at the chassis details, these tank wagons could be candidates:

613A:

26750:

629A (also 633A, 622A very similar):

 

[Mol_PMB]

I'd love to see more photos of these wagon types, or more details of what they were rebuilt into, if anyone can help?

Intriguingly I found this photo posted by mayner on another thread which appears to show one of the last 25436 series wagons, apparently built without a floor. Also a nice view of the fertiliser pallet body:

 

In the meantime I'll be finishing off a couple of other wagon kits and then starting on these.

[Mayner]

1 hour ago, Mol_PMB said:

Next up, the 27101 series of 20' container flats, which were an incremental development of the 2546 series.

 

This excellent photo from Brian Flannigan on Flickr shows 27109 in 1971 when it was still fairly new:

Also from Brian and dated 1971, here's 27190. Note that both of these are classified 'LA', and that these photos show the braked and unbraked sides. The brake arrangement appears to be the same as on the 25436 series:

 

 

There is a very good article on CIE freight modernisation programme appeared in an IRRS Journal (1969?) written by one of the engineers/managers in charge of the programme.

CIE designed and built a small number of hopper containers to carry grain (malt) traffic for a particular customer. CIE would have preferred to have used a conventional bulk container that could be discharged by tipping (from a truck), but had to go for a hopper with bottom discharge due to height restrictions at the customers premises. 

Traffic appears to have originated in Tralee as there are several photos of cuts of wagons with these containers in the North Kerry Yard, traffic appears to have been short lived and had ceased by the 1980s

[Mol_PMB]

Many thanks John, it sounds like I need to get a copy of that journal. I have quite a few of the IRRS journals from the 1970s and 1980s but nothing quite that old. Do you know if there is an index so I can work out which edition I need?

 

On the topic of the early containers, I have very much enjoyed a read through this thread:

https://irishrailwaymodeller.com/topic/8148-freight-containers-irish-oo-gauge-40ft-or-20-ft/

I have an interest in early ISO containers and have extensively researched the early fleet of Manchester Liners as part of another modelling project. I helped Arran with information on this aluminium type, which is now available:

https://shop.c-rail-intermodal.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=299&search=manchester

For some years Manchester Liners served Dublin, sometimes with direct calls of the trans-atlantic vessels and sometimes with connecting services and operating partners.

Being 8' high they will legitimately fit on the earlier types of CIE 20' container wagon, as shown in this photo fromJohn McKegney on Flickr with 25436 and 27101 series wagons:

I have also definitely seen a photo of a later 8'6" high Manchester Liners ribbed steel container on a liner train in Ireland. I just can't find the image at present, but here's the C-Rail model:

https://shop.c-rail-intermodal.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=272&search=manchester

 

I also have several editions of 'Jane's Freight Containers' from the 1960s and 1970s which give details of all the early container operators including CIE, Bell, B+I, Irish Ferryways etc. At some stage I'll do some scanning of the relevant bits.

Mol

[Mayner]

48 minutes ago, Mol_PMB said:

Many thanks John, it sounds like I need to get a copy of that journal. I have quite a few of the IRRS journals from the 1970s and 1980s but nothing quite that old. Do you know if there is an index so I can work out which edition I need?

 

Mol

One of the 1969 Journals as far as I recall, donated my collection of IRRS Journals to the Model Railway Society Of Ireland before I departed for NZ in 2004, perhaps MRSI or IRRS Libriarian may be able to help.

Another oddity during the late 60s/early 70s CIE shipped several trainloads of export sugar (for Nigeria) in 8'6" containers on 4w Flat Wagons from the Carlow Sugar Factory to Dublin Port as out of gauge loads. Presumably CIE would have checked clearances beforehand and imposed speed restrictions at overbridges & other structures where clearances were tight.

[leslie10646]

 Journal No. 57, pages 149-158 is the article John refers to. The same Journal has an article on the then CIE Railcar Fleet! Useful having a bound set on the shelf above me!

Containers and the Railway - C.J. Whalley                                                     10/149-158

I've PM'd you.

Edited Thursday at 09:48 by leslie10646