Mayner

Nice work I particulary like the photo of 086SA dates the loco to the 80s Is the leading coach a standard MK1 or have you modified it to a van?

Thanks John. I found out earlier that Irish Rail recently sent a quantity of material to the IRRS relating to wagons. This is possibly material from the Drawing Office in Limerick which closed a couple of years ago. However, I understand this will take years to sort through and categorise, and is therefore not available at present. I am waiting for confirmation from IRRS archivist who has been in touch with me as to what material, if any, they posess. I am still waiting to hear back from the Irish Rail Heritage Officer.....almost two weeks now since I wrote to him, asking if such information was available. Should I be contacting someone else in Inchicore?

 

My plan is to provide a more detailed and up to date version of Doyle's book. Maybe even backtrack to any wagons built since when CIE was formed. Problem is the availability of information, and that will be the make or break for the project, as there is no point just doing a reformat of Doyle's book. I could be wrong but my research so far possibly suggests that Doyle's book is missing certain wagon series or types. If I can get sufficient information, then the next phase would be sourcing photos and possibly getting drawings done up to illustrate different liveries and markings that wagons carried over the years. Maybe even scale drawings which would benefit modellers.

 

Response so far has been a bit disappointing, but I will continue to dig for information until all the sources on my list have dried up.

Don't forget that time is money even with CIE, the role of the Heritage Officer is mainly to allow IE to operate a modern railway without running foul of Councils and an Taisce for demolishing/modifying listed buildings historically significant infrastructure.

I found writing to the Chief Mechanical Engineers Office and requesting specific drawings is the most effective. I couple of years ago I was surprised to receive an e-mail from Phil Vestry to say he had instructed the Drawing Office to do a search, they came up with some excellent drawings and photos of the Park Royals and Laminates.

The Working Timetables in the 80s anyway had a list of wagon series and types, IRRS and the preservation groups may have copies of WTT for sale

In my opinion, whichever party is in opposition always seem to have great idea's, but when and if they get voted into government then quite often back track [excuse the pun]. As mentioned earlier, its the same in UK politics or Irish.

Also agree, Railways and most forms of public transport don't make a profit, but are there to provide a service. If the railways where shut down how would that help, with more traffic on the roads, Like Blu Bianco mentioned earlier about the N4/N50 in Dublin.

The one advantage public roads have over rail is that they are classed as a common good useable by anyone who has a driving license and paid se form of vehicle license on the European mainland, while a railway is classed as a private good operated for the profit of the owner or operator.

The Government uses its powers to set fees and duties to allow the road system to operate profitably and cover its social costs, its always been more expensive to run a car or truck in Ireland because of higher taxes, excise costs, duty ad insurance costs than Northern Ireland, the UK and most other countries. Its not shown as a profit as it goes into general taxation.

To a degree a similar system applies to rail in the UK with Intercity services centrally funded and suburban and rural services funded through the local rates. I wonder how the Dublin region, Cork or Limerick ratepayers would react to having to fund their local rail services?

I found the CMEs Office at Inchacore pretty good in terms of drawings but not much help in terms of general information. The 3rd edition Doyle & Hirch Locomotives and Rolling Stock of CIE & NIR probably has the most accurate details as no new wagons were built after the introduction of the Shale Wagons in the early 80s

I hadn't noticed the concreted hard standing before nicely modelled with the expansion joints and dummies. There must be a large creamery Co-Op locally to justify the investment inbound fertiliser, possibly the Ratio gantry to handle outbound butter & cheese for the UK market in insulated FM or those new fangeled ISO containers. The station might even stay open under Railplan 80

Maybe it the signal box but to me the station has a look of the GN about it, but still plausible if the Cork & Waterford had been built by an independent company in the 1850-60.

Nice looking job of a difficult prototype, Smallbrook Studios do some interesting stuff http://www.smallbrookstudio.co.uk/.

I remember reading a piece in Irish Railfans News that a number of spoil wagons were trialled as ballast wagons on CIE. I understand that the spoil wagons belonged to the NI Department of Transport rather than NIR. After the contract the Department was anxious for a buyer as NIR did not have a need or have the means to pay for the wagons.

I was at the Gloucester 0 Gauge Guild annual open day yesterday when I spied upon a NER wagon with the same braking system as in Ireland - long brake lever working on one wheel only. So there must a manufacturer out there who makes these, which would allow for detailing rtr goods stock.

Stephen

The Ratio OO 9'wb wagon chassis & LNWR open and p.w. wagon kits include the option of RCH and the old style single shoe brake gear similar to that used in Ireland http://www.peco-uk.com/product.asp?strParents=3340,3344&CAT_ID=3350&P_ID=17872 The LNWR wagons are good value a bit short but look reasonably close to ex GSWR wagons that lasted into the 1960s & 70s.

51L Models produce a number of Scottish wagons with single lever brake gear http://www.51l.co.uk/crwcom.htm#brake levers and lever guides

Introduced in 1966 as a general purpose flat wagon these were the 1st of the CIE family of 20T flats. The wagons were intended mainly for palletised and container traffic and fitted with swing down stanchions and tie downs for securing a load and were retro-fitted with cuplocks when ISO container standards were finalised in 1969.

The wagons were used for palletised keg, fertiliser and container traffic until the widespread introduction of bogie flats and purpose built fertiliser wagons and keg flats in the mid-late 70s. 256436 series flats formed the basis of the bagged cement and beet doubles, others ended up in departmental use on the cable train, sleeper wagons, one was fitted with a Hiab for use with the S&E department on the DART electrification and signalling.

The original intention was a detailing fret for the Prestwin with floor, bufferbeams, brake gear and solebar detail, in the end a complete kit turned out to be simpler and more effective.

Test Build 25436 Series Flat

The test assembly went together very well all of the critical components are self locating with slots and tabs. I need to look at the decking chequer plate ended up as polka dots and re-jig the buffer beams.

I am looking at detail castings for this and the 22'6" flat I have the masters for the spring and dampers somewhere, MJT do reasonably close roller bearing axlebox and buffers.

At this stage I am not sure on cost possible release date Autumn (Northern) 2014

I bought a couple of Base Toys Leyland Comets from Hatton's after Christmas

I thought I had to do something when I saw the photo of the CIE Leyland Comet tipper, but chickened out on the 3 way tipping mechanism.

The assembly is fold up no need for solder about 30 minutes work.

If anyone is interested let me know and I will look at costs

Even as railway enthusiasts, I suppose we have to face reality. Nobody on anything like the necessary scale uses Waterford - Limerick, Limerick - Ballybrophy or Ennis - Athenry.

 

We may say all we like, and correctly so, that this is as much due to CIE's wilful neglect of these routes over half a century, but there it is nonetheless. Individual stations like Ballybrophy, Attymon, Woodlawn, or a few others on the DSER, Kerry road, or possibly Thomastown... probably don't warrant stops for the same reasons, and using Varadkarnomics.

 

Collooney.... Dromod..... Mostrim..... The "M3 Parkway" branch.... Docklands..... Hmm...??

 

So watch that space.........??

Its a bit of a chicken and egg situation the railways only survived because the Government gave CIE a virtual monopoly on land transport and neither of the two main political parties could afford to discommode the public sector unions.

Most of the many reports found that it would cost less to let the railways to run down gradually rather than improving services or complete closure. The more passengers IE carries the greater the loss as none of the services come cover their operating costs.

The Irish people have to decide whether they are prepared to pay higher taxes to subsidise rail travellers or breakup CIE open public transport up to competition.

Killala seems an odd spot for a power station unless imported biomass is just a stop gap, or perhaps there are good tax breaks for setting up a "renewable" energy plant. A 50MW the proposed plant is less than half the size of Edenderry and 1/8 the size of Drax so is unlikely to need long trains of covered hopper wagons or a rebuild of the line to Killala.

Funnily enough locally produced industrial Ethanol was once an important traffic on the Ballina Branch, typically the plant was built alongside the line near Lough Conn, typically both CIE & Chemicals Teo. were allergic to a private siding serving the plant. Some how or other the DNGR had no problem providing a siding to the Cooley Pant

Do's this mean there's a chance we may be nearer getting a RTR wagon, CIE or whatever wagon,

I had one of the original whitemetal flats and a bubble from around 1982-3?.

Don't forget low sales volumes was one of the main reasons MIR closed up. Most of the kits were upgraded, re-tooled from whitemetal to resin with improved detail and simplified assembly. A rtr model needs to sell in 1000s, resin 50, whitemetal and etched brass about half that amount

Are Coca Cola planning to convert the Ballina Beverages plant to burn biomass or has someone built a power station?

Presumably the "biomass" is sawmill waste from the US & Canada compressed into pellets and export 5000-6000 miles. Hardly likely to reduce the carbon footprint compared to electricity produced from coal or natural gas.

Funnily enough ESB converted some of its sod peat stations such as Cahirciveen to run on biomass (willow and other quick growing trees) more than 30 years ago.

The long brake levers are a standard Irish Railway (IRCH) design used on most wagons about 1910 up to the md-1950, the van with the short brake lever is on a Bulleid Triangulated underframe standard for wagons and vans built by CIE in the mid 1950s. Both vans have independent either side brakes acting on one shoe per axle. The main difference between the two gears was that CIE went for a round rather than a flat section pushrod.

David.

I never cease to be amazed by the speed and quality of your work. Having two Leitrim class on the layout really helps to transform it from a model to a working railway. Brilliant stuff

I could have said it differently my question to Richie about taking on Dapol as to bring a bit of reality to the discussion, rather than take a pop at Richie, his modelling ability or creatitivity. While the plasticard chassis really looked the part and is an ideal material fo scratchbuiding, I don't see hand or possibly profile cut plasticard chassis kit as a realistic option for batch or mass production.

The group has more or less established that unless someone is prepared to put up 40-50K a massed produced rtr model of an Irish wagon is unlikely, commissioning someone like Parkside Dundas to produce a plastic wagon kit is also likely to be expensive. So this leaves up with the Dapol Prestwin and the small range of be-spoke Irish RTR wagons and kits which given the size of the market are never going to be cheap.

The low cost and the huge variety of RTR available in the UK is mainly as a result of a battle for market share between Bachmann & Hornby, commissioners like Dapol, Heljan and Murphy Models have carved out niche markets where people are prepared a premium for what are mainly collectors items mainly unsuccessful early BR Modernisation Scheme and Irish diesels.

The best we can hope for is that the 50 plus year old Prestwin toolings hold up, Parkside have produced custom wagon and chassis kits for other suppliers, but a premium would apply to a smallish run of say bagged cement or a beet doubles.

I don’t see a plastic chassis as a viable option for a 4 wheel skeletal flat there is no place to hide a weight.

A 25654 steel floored flat is with the engravers, these were the first modern CIE container flats quite complex wagons with steel floors fold down stanchions and various tied down straps as they were built shortly before the twistlock was invented. I am finalising the 22’6” flat I first prepared in 2012. Both wagons are fold up and slot and tab assembly so soldering will not be necessary.

Both wagons will have the correct width frame and are suitable for 21mm or OO I would expect to release both wagon kits later in the year, to keep the cost down I will probably sell these without castings most of which are currently available from MJT in the UK.

22'6" Flat test build

Garfield's point about it being no more expensive to get right as wrong is only partially true, while there are a few horrors out there, producing an accurate model or a buildable kit takes a lot of additional time and money. I will probably get through on these wagons with one maybe two design revisions, but even with all the information in the world we tend to miss the blindingly obvious

Very convincing I especially like the Simplex and the bus coach. I don't know about the present day even in the Mid 90s there was little in the way of Hi-Vis safety or work wear in Ireland, like most workers BNM staff (often farmers) wore their old clothes to work sometimes eve the old Sunday Suit. Depending the County the crew might break the monotony of the day with a kick about with a football or practice a ""puc fada" in hurling.

In Great Britain there were two standard forms of wagon brake:

RCH where the brake lever operated the brakes on that side of the wagon, but usually with brakes on each side of the wagon, and

Morton where the brake lever on either side would operate the brakes which were one sided only.

Can anyone explain the equivalent Irish system, please?

Stephen

I am not sure if any wagons fitted with the Morton handbrake in Ireland most of the unfitted wagons had a single brake shoe on each side operated by a long lever, a small number mainly CIE Pallet Vans, GNR Bagged Cement and Private Owner Tank wagons had independent either side brakes similar to the RCH type Most of the more modern fitted wagons had a parallel motion arrangement for transmitting the motion from the brake lever to the cross shaft similar to BR wagons of the same era.

Rchie

I am not sure whether your some Bluesky thinking is for producing some models for yourself or an attempt to undcut Dapol and corner the market Irish Wagon chassis kits.

Whatever Popeye probably had the best answer make up a set of plasticard patterns and cast the chassis in resin http://irishrailwaymodeller.com/showthread.php/2508-Popeye-s-Workbench.

RTV silicone is a lot better than maula should get 15-20 castings per mould, some wonderful solvent fumes and a lot of work cleaning up, but not as monotonus as cutting out 15-20 sets of parts from styrene.

If you want the couplers to look the part why not try out a set of Smiths 3 link or Instanters wont drive you bugs coupling/uncoupling if you run fixed rakes.

Quick and dirty prototype this evening - not for the finescale modeller, but it works. Concept is a fold up inner frame and then cosmetic solebars and buffer beam on. Added additional shims around the bearing to stop the wheelset dropping out.[ATTACH=CONFIG]12540[/ATTACH]

 

This is the scale width of the real thing, with a scale ballast hopper on top. All i need now is to cast the cosmetic axel assembly and detail it up, as ou would with a prestwin - brake gear, bum hopper, brake wheels vac pipe, buffers and coupling hook. Cost to me so far.... a little over a euro.....

[ATTACH=CONFIG]12541[/ATTACH]

Richie.

Quick maybe but nothing dirty about it. We seem to have been thinking on much the same lines.

Originally started out as a chequer plate floor, stanchions and bit for upgrading a Prestwin, fold up chassis on the left added after taking a closer look. Whole thing fits together with slots and tabs.

Not sure of the unit price yet but a skeletal would be cheaper as it uses less material.

Rocking W Irons don't really work on a skeletal, there is enough potential interest for a sprung version from the S4 modellers in the UK.

Riche

Funnily enough inspired by Patrick's 27101 conversion I looked at a brass floor, buffer beams a brake gear to convert a Prestwin into a 20' flat, I came to much the same conclusion/confusion and the artwork for a brass 25436 flat is with the engravers.

The aim was to produce a relatively straight forward kit designed to run on 21mm gauge, a chassis fabricated from brass is probably a better option for a flat as you haven't got the warping and shrinkage problems with casting in either whitemetal or resin.

I drew this a few years ago but gave up as the 3D Printer & CAD packages don't want to talk to each other so I concentrate on etched brass and traditional pattern making.

If you have mastered 3D solid modelling a 3D printed wax master for lost wax casting or a brass pattern may be a viable option for pattern making for whitemetal or resin casting, but you need to make allowance for shrinkage or expansion of the finished casting. The wax master would need cleaning up to remove ridges from the printing, which is really no different from machining and finishing a metal pattern

Really impressive rake, I think the look far better reasonably clean than heavily weathered,

Just noticed Hibernia engraved? in the splasher marvellous stuff. Modelling the early railways may be becoming fashionable there was a recent thread in RM Web about the build of a OO gauge mode of a Liverpool and Manchester 0-4-0 with a motor in the tender with a carden shaft drive to the loco. Very smooth running but looked odd shunting BR steam era rolling stock.

Looking at the cut stone work below the cabin it look like the GSR or CIE plonked one of its standard hipped roofed cabins on the base of an older box.

I wonder how the signal man got the electric train staff for the Athlone Branch ain crews?

A basket arrangement on a rope was for Navan Branch trains at Drogheda South cabin.

Portarlington got very busy when main line train frequecies were increased and Galway & Westport services were diverted over the branch in the early 70s. The signal man would have needed an assistant to do the walking and climbing between the station and cabin, or possibly a subsidiary staff instrument in the station building to allow a staff to be remotely released while the signal man remained in the box. With greatly increased train frequencies and the Athlone Branch a main line the signal an would have been worn out waking up and down the stairs and crews no longer time for cup of tea and a natter between branch linearrivals and departures,

In GSWR days Portarlington probably had East & West Cabins, the GSR& CIE re-signalled several of the larger stations like Athenry, Bray, Claremorris, Dun Laoire replacing a number of cabins with a large standard hipped roof box.

I wonder are there any photos of the original?

Happy St Patrick's Day. We had a 12 hour start on everyone bit bizzare sitting in a pub on a Monday morning with the other half having brunch, hardly anyone in the place, drinking Guinness & watching Ireland beat France.

The downside was that Tuesday Morning came 12 hours earlier