Noel

Well went to my first model railway exhibition in 20 years today. Enjoyed it very much. Many great exhibits. The venue was perhaps a bit tight for space, you couldn't swing a mouse let alone a cat by about 12pm. Some fabulous layouts. Met a few forumites too - Hello! Picked up a few bits and pieces, some books, DVDs and a nice IE EGV which is the main reason I went, but no other rolling stock as most show prices were above internet pricing. Highlight was having a brief chat with Mr Paddy Murphy, and getting the chance to thank him in person for the quality of his products and their impact on our hobby.

Nearly bought a pair of Silver Fox A class, but decided against in the end as the samples at the show didn't have all wheel pickups and had traction tyres common on older Hornby chassis (i.e. pickups on opposite sides of opposing bogies in the old style). I will investigate what higher quality chassis these can be married to or bought with as RTR models. For that kind of money one expects really good runners that can crawl over peco points much like the stunning MM GMs, a classy looking scale replica also needs to be a superb scale runner.

Liked the look of the green and grey Irish Rail intercity 201 locos, IMHO the best looking 201s in real life and in model form. Tempted to buy one at the show, but got a much better deal from an Irish retailer who was not at the show. Might pop in again on Monday. Anyway really enjoyed it, well done to organisers, and I am amazed how the hobby has advanced here in the past 20 years. Happy days.

A bit daft alright. A less popular GM loco in the most hideous loco livery CIE/IEs marketing dept ever dreamt up, and on a lima chassis. Just about to eat my porridge now.

Steam was gone before my memories began but I remember NIR 70 Class sets passing the bottom of our garden on the 'new' line to Antrim from Lisburn, 80 Class on the suburban services from Lisburn into Belfast. And the frequent freight trains from the south that ran into Adelaide which always had me running down to the fence to see the CIE locos and the cement bubbles, sometimes if I was lucky a train would be checked at the signal before Lisburn waiting for a clear road and then restarting towards Belfast with that glorious engine noise. But what I miss most is sitting with my head against the window of the train travelling to relatives in Portadown listening to the clickety clack of wheels on rail joints and watching the rise and fall of the telegraph wires. I was on a train into Belfast the other day, it was fast and comfortable but it wasn't memorable. They have even smoothed out the bump when the train passes Dunmurry Lane Level Crossing!!! It's just not right!!

Just Classic.

That looks great, love the atmosphere.

Don't forget the 121 & 141 combo, which I reckon looks as good as two 121s. They also carried all the liveries the 141/181 did, plus the grey & yellow livery they were delivered in

OK, I had never seen that. In ze old days, I had often travelled to Galway on board trains hauled by a single 121. I presume they were turned in those days for the return leg or there might have been some sort of driving coach at the other end. I can't remember.

I must be a fuddy duddy when it comes to my rose tinted railway memories. Forgive the long boring Friday afternoon rambling of one nostalgic for how railways were, or at least what memory thinks they were like.

I first became aware of real trains and model trains in the early 60s, and more so in the 70s. There were two types of trains, the CIE ones I travelled on, and the trains I saw in movies and TV. The former were A & C, 141/181, 121 and later 071 loco hauled passenger trains with a wide variety of coaching stock in rakes including old laminates, the fabulous Park Royals, and the modern Cravens. The latter were all UK steam trains, GWR, LMS, LNER and SR, and my earliest exposure to model railways was my fathers Hornby Dublo 2 rail made up of GWR and BR express steam locos.

The real goods trains I saw here in the 60s and early 70s, and the goods trains one always saw on TV back then and in old movies were short wheelbase two axel un-breaked wagons of all sorts, and here is the punch line - all goods trains had a break/guards van at the end, as did mainline passenger trains always have a break van at the end of the rake. I grew up with old coaching stock and old freight trains in the brain.

I remember well when CIE introduced the 'super train' to much fanfare and very intense advertising campaign (i.e. mk2s), but even back then I thought it was a most ugly livery and not easy on the eye. Who in their right mind would paint a coach roof exposed to severe weathering a daft colour like day glow orange! Then bogie freight started to arrive late 70s and hells bells awful plain boxy looking container wagon - that didn't need a break van at the end, looked incomplete like a fish that had its tail bitten off by a shark. Suddenly all the freight wagons were getting longer and longer and didn't look as well on small layouts with tight radius curves. At least they were largely hauled by the amazing sounding GMs - a sound etched in my childhood memory, a sweet sound no UK loco ever emitted, rather they sounded like quiet tractors.

Most of the trains I travelled on were on the former GSWR and MGWR rails, never until the 90s had I been on the east coast lines south to Wexford or north to Belfast. I was on an enterprise that broke down in Portadown station on the Friday of the annual 'drumcree' problem in 1997 at a bygone time when passions were high and I had to spend a very nervous 2 hours in the station waiting for a replacement train. I spoke vit ze german (deutscher) akzent ven I sprech mit ze NIR stazion staf, asking zem wen ze korrect train vud kom tu ze station. It was a most uncomfortable experience but passed uneventfully. Been on a quite a few enterprises since and had very pleasant experiences travelling for work in 1st class - a cut well above IE fare. The food on the Cork early bird now is a joke compared to 15 years ago or earlier, when you could order from a menu, had a linen table cloth and ones food was cooked on the train and served on ceramic plates instead of a cellophane wrapped microwaved bacon buttie. How times of changed.

These new railcar trains seem such characterless plastic tubberware bus boxes on rails, that sound like buses not like real trains and have the most uncomfortable seats and ride compared to the coaching stock of yesteryear. When the 201s were introduced in the early 90s with the initial livery that seemed dreamt up by a colour blind graphic designer, visually they didn't 'blow my skirt up', no walkway, just a long box with a slanty bit at each end as a token homage to aerodynamics. Spoke to a driver before boarding one day in 1996 and asked him if the new locos were a big improvement on the 071s - "Huh!" he grunted, "No these heaps of 5x1t are as reliable as a straw bra strap, always breaking down, and have new fangled fly-by-wire software that is always stopping the trains. These junk heaps are not a patch on the reliable 071s". Twas early days for the 201s and the early problems did get snagged out, but they cause some reliability grief in the early years, but at least they sounded like locos - not bendy bus 22ks.

My memory of Irish good trains were black liveried A(101),C, 141 and 181s hauling mixed traffic corrugated open wagons, closed vans, short wheel based open flats with boxes and crates strapped down, cattle wagons, cable wagons, fertiliser wagons, beat, and the odd two axel short coach/vans, all terminated with a beefy break van. One christmas my little brother got a train set with heaven forbid, twin axil bogied container flats and four 40ft containers - ugly modern or what I thought - glad santa didn't inflict that one me I thought (ungrateful little brat I was). No buffers, no guards van, and they were so long they overhung the short radius set track so much that the curved platforms couldn't be used!!!

Even though 60s and early 70s CIE Irish passenger trains were hauled by GM diesels, there was a nostalgic echo back to the steam days when one saw swirls of steam leaking up from the coach sides and ends at the platforms due to the steam heating on those old trains. All that was missing was 'chuff chuff', but the GMs notching up and down were stirring sounds, like a space ship preparing for warp speed (i.e. 70mph if you were lucky on a CIE mainline express to Cork).

So I'm a self confessed model railway dinosaur who considers everything after 071s, Park Royals, Cravens and short wheel base freight wagons, mere modern tubberware buses that have no soul, and from a modelling point of view need very large radius curves that just don't fit into most modern homes in OO gauge. I'm a hybrid that grew up with toy trains modelled on UK steam era as seen on the movies and TV, but grew up travelling on Irish trains hauled by ubiquitous GMs and 001 class locos. Thanks to Murphy Models I have now been able to run proper model Irish trains on my layout instead of repainted BR coaches and orange class 25s and 33s that look nothing like CIE 001 class. I'm sure one day somebody may well be rambling on about the 39000 class 200mph Cork express DMUs and hoping they will soon be released as models with preloaded DCC mk4 chips (i.e. lights, sound, smell modules). Ah well, IR train toilets have holding tanks unlike swiss railways which still use the tracks (i.e. the best run railways in the world). Now the TGV and soon to run EGV, thats a real train one again despite pretending to be a very long rail car. If I could wave a magic wand at the MRSI exhibition I'd buy a new train set with a MM 001 class loco pulling a rake of Park Royals compete with linen table cloths of course!

[EOF - end of meandering ramblings]

Weird looking cab/hybrid coach arrangement. Where was the coal stored?

The reason why the government threw money at IE to buy all those ICRs was because of EU rules, you could no longer allow raw sewage to be flushed on to the tracks & a minimum requirement for wheelchair access in each coach, the cost of converting 'old' stock v buying new stock ( taking in to account these new trains would eliminate guards, shunters, TTCs, turnarounds etc) then as a business case it made sense. In reality though......!!!! By the way those ICRs are far from fuel efficient compared to Loco hauled trains, you have an engine & generator under each coach running at full pelt, up to a certain number of coaches they are but anything from say a 6 piece & up, they are not. We mightn't like it but unfortunately the accountants are running the railway so heritage, nostalgia goes out the window

Well they say the swiss have the most efficient railways in the world. But their W/Cs today still exit straight onto the track, in fact you can see the tracks through the bowl.

EU land seems to have a paranoia for exceptionally high standards we can't really afford, and some strands of H&S have entered 'la-la land' at the cost of economic development. ROI and revenue is more important than nostalgia, but in IE's case it seems somebody gave them a big piggy bank so long term financial prudence went out the window and they rushed off to the toy shop and emptied the contents of their piggy bank - funded by the public. Ironically had the 'celtic tiger' not over heated and IE not spent the transport 21 money on rolling stock, we might have ended up with a better and more efficient rail network today. When money is scarce it tends to be more wisely spent.

Did she run on gas?

OK having watched the Hitler video on the other tread I now fully understand what happened and why the Mk3s were scrapped.

Reason = Financial incompetence on the part of government, IE and consultants = Insane waste of public capital investment

The man who posted the stats. We all owe him a lot of thanks for facilitating the site and saving it in its hour of need.

OK - Thank you BK from a newbie. Superb site. Hat's off to you.

I tend to agree. Personally speaking I'd love to see new runs of 001(A) class and perhaps 121, or even reruns of 141/181. It looks like 121 is on the MM radar rather than 001 which is a pity as I think 001s would sell in far greater numbers. 001's should cost a little less to produce due to simpler body form (e.g: one piece body moulding and lack of walkway hand rails which must add to the labour cost significantly). I suspect some may limit their spend on 121s to a pair for running nose to nose, or one with a SF push/pull mk3 set, whereas others might collect fleets of the nostalgic 001s which most of us over 45 will have travelled behind on Irish rails. I am astounded by how many modellers seem to have 141/181 and 071s in double digit numbers. It must be an age thing due to nostalgia having travelled on trains pulled by them. I sound like a broken record and I'm only back in the hobby 12 weeks! I'd buy about four 001s but only two 121s.

That's very impressive growth. Especially in an era where many special interest group boards have had reductions in traffic due to Facebook and Twitter encroaching on folks 'internet' time.

BTW, purely as a matter of interest who set up and owns this wonderful forum? Hats off.

Omg I can't stop laughing

[video=youtube_share;Ar2neIJ_iPk]

Only discovered this nugget today when reading back through the thread.

ROFLMAO - just brilliant

IE,BR mk3 are standard build no difference,same with mk2s.

Thanks. Any idea why then the IE Mk3s were taken out of service little over halfway through their service life?

It also seems a poor waste of capital investment to have virtually put the 201 fleet out to pasture or light freight duties after only 15-18 years in service except for the few Cork/Belfast sets. I'm trying to understand what the economic cost benefit of buying the shinny new 22ks was, especially given their high maintenance cycle requiring a visit to Portlaoise depot every 48-72 hrs or is that an urban myth? That must cost a lot in terms of repositioning trips presumably during the night too. The turnaround times at mainline termini stations of 22ks would be quicker due to the avoidance of loco runaround times at places like Killkenny and Killarney, but hardly a significant cost in time, maintenance of the few passing loops or coupling/uncoupling staff costs. The need for EGVs with loco hauled trains would add a cost compared to rail cars, but one would have thought that would might only come into play when old assets reach their end of the operating life and are replaced by more efficient stock at that time. I can understand the cost/benefit of 22ks v loco sets if starting with a blank sheet, but given the large mk3 fleet and 201 fleet that already existed, it's hard to understand the premature scrapping.

UPDATE: Apologies, I see this topic was already discussed at length in the past.

http://irishrailwaymodeller.com/showthread.php/2093-MK3-Scrapping

I came across this interesting piece -

- nice shots at the end of the revised track layout at Waterford!

Stepehen

Thanks for posting that link. Some great footage. The EGV could do with some TLC and lick of paint, but the Cravens look superb. Love the wood in the restaurant car.

Mk3's were borderline structurally sound for 4'8". They were in the danger zone once engineers realised that an additional 5" were added to their width, without the calcs being done. Whilst i love them, they were unsound. And that comes from an outside IE consultant engineer, who i'd swear my life on.

Hi Glenderg. Thanks, that's interesting. I had mistakenly understood the CIE Mk3s where structurally identical to BR Mk3s with identical loading gauge/dimensions, but 6.5" wider track gauge rather than wider bodies (excluding door differences and different electrics and internal cosmetics). I had understood that the wider gauge had given them a more comfortable ride and greater stability than their BR equivalents running on the narrower 4'8" gauge. You learn something new every day! The various private UK operators are still operating much of their original mk3 fleets at much higher speeds than IRs ever ran at. Was there structural differences between the original BREL built mk3s for CIE and the BR ones? Or perhaps it was the later CIE Mk3s built here under license? I was fascinated why our Mk3s had aged and been deemed end of life in contrast with the UK fleets. Many of our mk3s only saw 20-23 years of service which is nothing for modern coaching stock, and their operating cycles (i.e. usage) was low compared to BR stock. It still 'smells' of poor utilisation of past capital investments in stock. I wonder if poor maintenance or reduced major overhaul cycles had anything to do with the 'structural' integrity issues expressed by 'consultant' source rather than original build specs.

Cheers.

Noel.

Its bizarre that IR wasted money on all the new 22ks when the mk3s had at least 15 years service life left in them. BR mk3s are due to run for another decade at least despite their introduction in 1972 with HST125. IR might have been wiser to spend the 'Celtic tiger' giveaway money they received in the 00s on track and signalling infrastructure and better timetables. They bought a fleet of powerful 201s only 17 years ago that are hardly used with many lying up. Crazy waste and shameful to see the mk3s being scraped instead of overhauled before they wasted money on the 22ks.

Its difficult to tell until it's finished.

Thanks

Spotted this new Android app for controlling JMRI layout:

http://www.modelrailforum.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=29591

https://plus.google.com/communities/103043383838285932882

Still pondering what to do with my pair of CIE Lima class 33s which I have from the late 1970s or early 80s. They were supposed to look a bit like 001/A class MVs but compared to todays standards they don't really measure up. Not bad in BR livery as class 33s for their time. They've been in storage for 30 years! Three choices seem to be static display for nostalgia reasons, sell, or rejuvenate with better power units and all wheel pickups, and add the proper A class cab window arrangement and buffer beam. They are not bad runners for 70s/80s but compared to MM 141/181s they are not as smooth, nor as quiet. Decisions, decisions. I might try doctoring one of the bodies this winter and if thats a success then investigate as per DVs suggestions better motors and all wheel pickup.

Hi guys, didnt know wether to post this as its a ----take against myself! I do a lot of my modelling in the conservatory, good light, out of the way usual stuff. Windows have roller blinds, small desk under south facing window, got the picture? desk has a angle poise lamp with a magnifing glass. I went out on Sunday to Peterborough show, left blinds up so the cat was happy sleeping in the sun, conservatory got hot , lamp drooped, sun moved across the windows and focussed on the tender of one of my Bachmann Woolworths. They do melt! My only bit of luck was The tender is not a blob but a sort of creased side. And I hope I have recovered it with filler and lots of rubbing down, the other luck was it was"nt a Murphy Models version but one I got hold of to do a very heavy weathering exercise on. You all know what the moral of this tale is. So be carefull!! and stop laughing!! Now!!

Mike

Not laughing at all Mike. That is a salutary lesson for us all. Glad damage was not too bad. We could have lost our home about 10 years ago due to low winter sun striking a ladies magnifying mirror on the window cill of our bathroom. It burnt a 1/2" deep gouge right across the wooden window frame. It the gouge line was burnt to a crisp. Thankfully there weren't any more flammable items on the window cill at the time or it could have caught fire!!! What was scary is it was only low winter sun which we normally wouldn't expect to be hot, but magnify those rays into one tiny concentrated area at just the right focal distance and ouch! Thanks for posting.

PS: Reminds me of my childhood when I setup a small Triang layout on a sun room table (birthday present). The hot sun ruined my two BR MkII coaches which partially melted and warped like bananas. I was not a happy bunny but learnt a lesson that day.

Does anybody know where I might source a mk2 EGV in IR or IE livery (dual white strip, black or orange roof), but not yellow, orange Galway livery? Probably silly timing for such a question given the show next weekend, but no harm asking. Noel

Eh, not quite sure what that means, as in 'dream on' or yes its part of the dance!

At a show earlier in the year in Dublin I could hardly get a word in to ask a trader about some of his stock, pricing, etc, as he was engrossed in idle 'chit chat' with some tyre kickers who seemed to be pals of his. After waiting 10 mins to talk to the guy I left and instead bought a rake of coaches the next day over the phone from another vendor for €5 less per coach than the 'chatty' guys show prices!!! He should have watched John Cleese's famous sales training videos 'how not to lose a sale'.