GSWR Saloon No. 900

[MikeO]

I was recently looking for information on this coach and came across the thread below dating from 2015. Mention was made that a drawing of Saloon 900 could not be found. I was sent in 2013 a variety of extracts from an IRRS booklet. Included in this was a drawing of Saloon 900. I cannot remember the source.  I have attached a copy of that drawing for information. My 2016 set of IRRS Drawings does not show saloon 900.

Desmond Coakham in his book Irish Broad Gauge Carriages on page 16 included a photo of Saloon 900 taken at Glanmire Road on 20 June 1953. The coach has been altered a little but is still running as a 1st class coach. The main differences are the removal of one of the double doors and the inclusion of an addition window. The photo shows 7 ventilators along the top of the side I do not know if these were on the 1924 version as the drawing does not show such detail.

  Does anyone know when the coach was altered and if the ends remained that same as in the original?

 

MikeO

[jhb171achill]

I believe it was converted to departmental use in the mid 1960s.

It remains the sole surviving thing on wheels from the W & L Railway.

[MikeO]

Thanks JHB.

I am thinking that the GSWR would  have kept the coach in the original W&L configuration/livery and that the GSR, perhaps in the 1930s, would have converted the coach to a more traditional 1st class coach style. Thus changing the interior to conventional seating and changing the livery to crimsion lake. Would that be a plausible scenario?

MikeO

[jhb171achill]

Along those lines indeed, MikeO, though while original internals would have been little altered in its passenger-carrying life, the exterior livery would have change from WLWR maroon at first repaint to the GSWR’s very dark purpley brown. It may have had the off-white upper panels for a while but not necessarily. This “dark lake” colour would have been maintained after amalgamation albeit now with GSR rather than GSWR markings (not that different!) until eventually probably being replaced by a more LMS-like maroon in the mid 1930s. It is possible that it went straight from the dark lake to CIE green. At some stage after 1945, CIE green. It may or may not have ended up in the lighter green.

Internally I think it remained a saloon but cannot be 100% sure of seating.

[seagoebox]

Coach number 900...

In the CIE internal use booklet "Classification of Passenger Rolling Stock", dated 1st February 1961, no 900 is listed on page  35 under "Ambulance Vans" along with 1097, 94M, 163M, 1900 (these four were re-numbered AM 12/ 10/ 11/ 13 in September 1965) 1097  went to the RPSI.

Non-Bogie, 34 feet buffer to buffer, 30 feet over headstocks, max width 9 feet, Max height 11 feet 3 and a half inches, open saloon, 1 lavatory, heating- yes, lighting- yes, gas, passenger communication - yes.

Under seating accommodation it records "two berths", year built 1891.

[jhb171achill]

1097 is an interesting one. In original form it was a tricomposite, with both side-corridor (1st and 2nd class) and open (3rd class) internal configuration...... now at Downpatrick, where it's actually been for years, but owned as seagoebox says by the RPSI until comparatively recently when it was transferred to DCDR's ownership.

WLWR No. 900 is, for those who may not be aware, locked up in a shed at Belturbet station in storage.

[seagoebox]

1097 is listed in the February 1961 register as...

56 feet buffer to buffer, 52 feet over headstocks, 9 foot 3 maximum width, 12 foot 7 maximum height, accommodation for 4 "male" stretchers, and 30 seats, 2 corridor gangway connections, centre corridor, 2 lavatories, fitted for heating, electric lighting, , two gas rings, two cloakrooms, fitted for radio.  Built in 1924, and re-built in 1959. It was renumbered AM12 in September 1965

[jhb171achill]

26 minutes ago, seagoebox said:

1097 is listed in the February 1961 register as...

56 feet buffer to buffer, 52 feet over headstocks, 9 foot 3 maximum width, 12 foot 7 maximum height, accommodation for 4 "male" stretchers, and 30 seats, 2 corridor gangway connections, centre corridor, 2 lavatories, fitted for heating, electric lighting, , two gas rings, two cloakrooms, fitted for radio.  Built in 1924, and re-built in 1959. It was renumbered AM12 in September 1965

Does it not mention the compartments / side corridor bit, which were still there when the RPSI got it?

[seagoebox]

Jonathan,

No mention, and the fact that it is recorded as "centre corridor" is not quite correct, centre & side as I recall.

[seagoebox]

From the GSRPS magazine Southern Steam 1986 & 1987

[seagoebox]

while we are on the subject of the GSRPS at Mallow, anybody any ideas on what happened this one, seen at Mallow in June 1991 ?

[jhb171achill]

34 minutes ago, seagoebox said:

Jonathan,

No mention, and the fact that it is recorded as "centre corridor" is not quite correct, centre & side as I recall.

Correct, that's what it was. Beautiful vehicle - I was in it on RPSI May tours, and also on the DCDR!

15 minutes ago, seagoebox said:

while we are on the subject of the GSRPS at Mallow, anybody any ideas on what happened this one, seen at Mallow in June 1991 ?

I think that's 47M (originally). Doesn't look very "Midland" as it was heavily rebuilt either by the GSR or more likely CIE as a departmental tool van. It ended up in private hands and the owner agreed for it to go to Downpatrick, when other storage options ran out. Unfortunately it was in very rough condition.

If that's the coach I think it is, I inspected it at Downpatrick years ago and found both damp rot and dry rot all over it. The chassis wasn't too bad, though, but the bodywork was by this stage unstable. One night at Downpatrick about 15 years ago or more, very strong winds simply made it collapse - that's how bad the body was. So it has ceased to be...............

[MikeO]

Seagoebox

Thanks for that information about coach 900. The double doors on each side would lend its self to use as an ambulance coach.  That inturn may mean that it was not rebuilt as a standard 1st class coach until after 1945 perhaps by CIE and then sent to Cork. Would the "two berths" mean that there were beds that could double up as bench seats and the open saloon configuration was kept to the end. Desmond Coakham mentioned it ended its days as the break-down van 465A in Waterford. Again the open configuration would benefit that type of use.

JHB

Thanks for the livery information. So many potential options.

[GSWR 90]

Would anybody have any details of the interior of 900? There was a photo online I think of it after withdrawal but I can't find it. GSWR 69 at Downpatrick is being rebuilt to a configuration similar to 900 and I'd be very interested to see some photos of the inside of the original for inspiration.

 

 

Edited May 24 by GSWR 90

[jhb171achill]

1 hour ago, GSWR 90 said:

Would anybody have any details of the interior of 900? There was a photo online I think of it after withdrawal but I can't find it. GSWR 69 at Downpatrick is being rebuilt to a configuration similar to 900 and I'd be very interested to see some photos of the inside of the original for inspiration.

 

 

The interior of 69, as above, on the DCDR, will actually be a completely different layout to ex-WLWR 900.

69 has a brake compartment in the middle, with a saloon either side. It was, of course, never like this in real life, nor did any railway that I am aware of have a coach with a guard's compartment between two first class open compartments, so the rebuild of 69 is quite unique; in operational days it was only ever a full brake (and one of only 2 or 3 six-wheel vehicles to receive black'n'tan).

No. 900 had a single saloon, with a toilet at the non-windowed end, and a sort of "drawing room" compartment with two facing seats in the window end, as shown in the diagram with the pink background.

The diagram of 322 / 324 / 325 below shows the layout of about the only three first saloons that existed (might have been a handful more), but these had a toilet in the middle and bench seating. An all-first saloon without a toilet would not have been likely. I am unaware of any such in saloon form.

Bottom line is that there will be nothing at all comparable to the rebuild of 69 - but the finished article will be an absolute masterpiece nonetheless, and with double doors invaluable for wheelchairs and children's buggies. Let us hope it becomes a regular performer as a service vehicle instead of special days out only!

It was, of course, not at all unusual for railway companies back in the day to rebuild vehicles with completely different configurations to what they originally had. The MGWR's 1M is a good case in point - variously a first class diner - or a third class seated coach! And with six wheel bogies, then four wheel ones.

Second image shows the trio of first saloons with fixed bench seats and the last one shows 69 as it was throughout its railway service.

Edited May 24 by jhb171achill