EMD GM6 locos - an Irish what-if?

[Mol_PMB]

@jhb171achill mentioned this class of loco to me on the Achill tour at the weekend, so I thought I'd post the info I had on them. I hope this is a suitable part of the forum.

The EMD GM6 were a shortened version of the 121 class with a rigid 6-wheel chassis and a 6-cylinder version of the standard EMD 567 engine.

At the time that CIE ordered the 121s from EMD, they also invited bids for a batch of 6-wheeled diesel shunters which actually emerged as the E421 class. But CIE could have chosen the equivalent EMD GM6 design instead - they are similar in size, power and capability to the E class. They have drive by cardan shaft like the E, but are diesel-electrics rather than diesel hydraulics. So this is a plausible 'what-if' loco for CIE.

I have an EMD Export catalogue from that period which gives the technical specifications of the GM6. 

(not sure why these images have been slightly corrupted - sorry)

 

 

Thanks to this excellent thread (and unique model railway) over on RMweb, here are some photos of the GM6 locos supplied to Lebanon:

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/topic/181696-les-caves-du-roy-beirut-lebanon-in-the-1980s-chemin-de-fer-de-letat-libanais-cel/

 

[jhb171achill]

Always thought this would be a good thing on a layout. 

They’d almost certainly have been designated “E”, thus would probably have been the E441 or E451 class. 

I got one of those old whitemetal MIR 121 bodies some time back either the (long term!) intention of shortening it and sticking it on top of some old 6-wheel power bogie to see what could be done. Those whitemetal bodies are extremely crude indeed by today’s standards, and would not compare well to an IRM 121 on a siding beside it; but, I thought, potentially an interesting exercise. 

[Mol_PMB]

More pics here:

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/topic/181696-les-caves-du-roy-beirut-lebanon-in-the-1980s-chemin-de-fer-de-letat-libanais-cel/page/10/#findComment-6268397

[Mol_PMB]

Proper scans of the catalogue pages for the GM6:

 

Here's the slightly larger B-B variant the GA8:

 

[Mol_PMB]

And to complete the set, here's the GL8 which was the basis of the 121 class:

 

[Mol_PMB]

While I've got the scanner and the EMD Export catalogue to hand, here's the next size up, the G8:

 

Why is this relevant? Well it's another Irish what-if...

In the IRRS Archives is this EMD drawing dated 16 December 1955, comparing the size of the G8 to the Irish GNR(B) gauge:

[Mol_PMB]

The larger sizes were as follows:

G12: 1425hp 12-cylinder engine as a Bo-Bo (18t axleload) or an A1A-A1A (13t axleload)

GR12: 1425hp 12-cylinder engine as a Co-Co (15t axleload)

G16: 1950hp 16-cylinder engine as a Bo-Bo (22t axleload), an A1A-A1A (16t axleload) or a Co-Co (17t axleload)

DT16: 2600hp turbocharged 16-cylinder engine as a Co-Co (19t axleload)

(note: I've rounded the axleloads to the nearest whole number).

 

The G12 A1A-A1A or perhaps the GR12 might have been of interest to Bulleid if Ireland had any dollars in the mid-1950s. The others would have been too heavy.

Here's a G12 still in use, photo by my friend Rick Skateboard on Flickr:

And from Neil Smith on Flickr, here's a G8, the type considered for the GNR:

 

[Mol_PMB]

Here's the G12. The GR12 was very similar but 4'4" longer and Co-Co. I'm going to put the scanner away now!

[jhb171achill]

I see that 6-wheeled yoke to which I initially referred was 650 hp. Had anything similar actually come here - and as Mol intimates, it might well have done - that horsepower would have put it in the "C" rather than "E" class, presumably; thus, the C251 class perhaps?

[Mol_PMB]

Going back to the G8 drawing for the GNR(B) in 1955, there's a good article in IRRS Journal 186 by Domhnall o'Muiri about the specifications sent out by the GNR(B) in 1954, and the responses of various manufacturers.

They defined a lightweight and short loco (governed by the size of the Dundalk shops and the permitted axleloadings on secondary routes) and for main line use specified 800hp to 1000p. It appears that EMD offered the G8 which had the right power, would have met the axleload limits in its A1A-A1A variant, but would have been too long. It was also one of the more expensive options, and EMD not make it through to the GNR(B)'s second round of tendering.

In 1954, the GL8 model had not yet been developed - that came in 1960. The GL8 (e.g. 121 class) would have been a better fit to the GNR(B) specification and as we know they were found quite suitable for operation on former GNR routes in the 1960s. 

I wonder whether EMD's failure to secure an order from the GNR(B) - and doubtless other overseas customers with limits on axleload and size - contributed to the development of the GL8 which would later have such an impact on Irish railway traction policy?

From Ernie, a GL8 at Belfast GVS

[Mayner]

An article by Peter Cark on the Victorian Railways T Class (Motive Power Magazine (Australia) Oct/Nov 2005) provides some background on EMDs development of smaller/lighter GM6,GA8 and GL8 models during the late 50s/early 60s incl. Australian adaptions built under license by Clyde Engneering.

The article identifies the GM6, GA8 and GL8 as the smallest units.

GM6 The smallest unit the GM6 was adaptable to narrow gauges below one meter, but all units actually built were standard gauge, Lebenon being the main customer.

GA8 Described as 4 axle version of the GM6 with two traction motors running on standard 3 piece American freight bogies. 3' narrow gauge versions supplied to Mexico and largest order to 5'6" gauge to Argentinan State Railway. GA8 was the same above the frame as the "top of the line" GL8.

GL8 Built with both low and high clearance cabs, the 'best known version' with the high cab version was the Irish 121 Class like most T class built to 5'3"

Clyde G6B

The article identifies that while no GL8s were built in this form for Australia, Clyde adapted the GL8 design for the G6B. The Westrail J (standard gauge)being the closest thing to a 'real" GL8 in Australia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WAGR_J_class_(diesel)

The majority of G6Bs were the 75 Victorian Railways Y class (5'3" & std gauge) which looked much like the later T Class but running on bogies and traction motors salvaged from withdrawn electric suburban trains.

https://www.victorianrailways.net/motive power/ydie/ydie.html

Clyde G8B Victorian T (second order)

Going back to Pauls question about the impact EMDs failure to secure overseas orders as a result of weight/axleload restrictions, Clyde Engineering developed a lighter version of the standard G8 export model mainly for branch line use in Victoria. 

The Clyde Engineering G6B (second order T class) appears to have entered service between June and November 1959 approx two years before the CIE introduced the B121 Class.

https://www.victorianrailways.net/motive power/t347_356.html

Kiwi perspective.

New Zealand Railways successfully operated 3'6" A1A A1A versions of EMD standard export G12 (DA) and G8 (DB) locomotives for many years. While some light axleload EE & Mitsubishi locos were introduced during the 50s and 60s all had gone by the mid-late 80s, the poor performing EE 2-Co Co-2 DE class by 1980.

In certain respects a double cab A1A A1A broad gauge version of the G12 would have been more effective than the B121/141/181 classes, higher power largely eliminating double heading, A1A bogies would have resulted in steadier riding/improved braking (especially loose coupled goods), more a case of 'what iffery"

GNR(B) & CIE 1950s tenders.

There is an interesting series of articles on a joint NIR/GN(B) proposal in No 2 & 3 Vol 3 (2005-6) New Irish Lines. The GN preference appears to have been for an Arn Jung 1000hp diesel hydraulic £38,675(cheapest tender)  the GN comment on the evaluation "This is the only locomotive that completly meets our requirement".  

The EMD proposal(s) appear to have been for off the shelf G8 designs in Bo Bo or A1A A1A format price varying between £50,937 and £52,179. To long, too heavy and too costly for the GN Board and its political masters. Its likely EMD were aware of the political and financial situation in both the UK and Ireland and had to go through the motions and quote! Apart from the challenge of both Stormont and Merrion Street coming to an agreement to spend serious money on a cross-border initiative, its unlikely that the trade unions in the UK would have been exactly happy about an order for diesel locos going outside the UK.

Still a G8 A1A A1A working hard on a cross-Border or Derry-Road freight would have been quite a sight and made quite a sound.

Edited Saturday at 10:36 by Mayner

[jhb171achill]

6 hours ago, Mayner said:

……joint NIR/GN(B) proposal……

 

Still a G8 A1A A1A working hard on a cross-Border or Derry-Road freight would have been quite a sight and made quite a sound.

UTA / GNR(B)??

A 121 or similar over Carrickmore bank with 32 loose-coupled vans behind it would INDEED be some spectacle…..!!

In other news, I suppose if the Derry Road HAD survived, today would be a diet of identical NIR railcars, and unstaffed halts……!! (Man on duty probably only in Dungannon, Omagh & Strabane…!)

[Mayner]

17 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

UTA / GNR(B)??

A 121 or similar over Carrickmore bank with 32 loose-coupled vans behind it would INDEED be some spectacle…..!!

In other news, I suppose if the Derry Road HAD survived, today would be a diet of identical NIR railcars, and unstaffed halts……!! (Man on duty probably only in Dungannon, Omagh & Strabane…!)

Well spotted JHB should have read UTA/GNR joint dieselisation proposal of 1953!         

'Diesel Dawn" Colm Flanagan 2003) CH10 "Diesel Locomotives of the UTA & GNR(I) p116-120 incl. diagrams.

Working in collaboration UTA and GN engineers carried out a study on how best to dieselise both networks. 

Interestingly 4 types were shortlisted from 19 proposals received, one diesel mechanical (experimental), two diesel hydraulic, one diesel electric (833hp Metrovick BoBo with Paxman or Crossley engine) similar in outline to a Baby Deltic!,  EMD, MAK, Krupp and Harland & Wolff also tendered (too heavy, too long and too expensive!)

Personally I think the 121s would have been disasterous on loose coupled Derry Road freights (poor traction, inadequate braking power), however the 6 axle (A1A AIA) version of the standard export G8 (same power as 121/141) or G12 (1200Hp) would have been a different story.

[Mol_PMB]

A G8 model is available from Frateschi in either wheel arrangement. 
Sold as HO it is apparently somewhat overscale and may be nearer OO. 

[jhb171achill]

Some years back I was asked to assist in clearing the house of the late Marcus Bailie-Gage, of Dundalk Works. He had been a close and valued family friend going back to my grandfather’s time in Inchicore. 

Marcus had held onto a large amount of paperwork from Dundalk. Unfortunately he had stored it in cardboard boxes in an external shed, as a result of which the vast bulk of it was a soggy mass of damp pulp, moss, rat droppings and fungus. I extracted what I could, and dried it out and brought it into the IRRS, where presume it remains. 

Sadly, the actual bulk of it was beyond salvation and had to be dumped - one manila file about carriage upholstery being almost half torn apart and eaten by rats to make nests, the rest largely illegible due to damp. 

Amongst what I WAS able to retrieve was a box full of brochures from General Motors, General Electric, Birmingham RCW, and a number of mainland European firms. Sulzer were in there too. 

Some had hand-written notes, and bits of paper as bookmarks in certain pages, but the overall effect was of serious plans being made by the GNR, and research nets cast very wide indeed. 

In conversation with Marcus, the last time I was speaking to him was about 2005, I don’t recall him mentioning diesel locos, though he was very impressed with the AEC railcars. He felt that Inchicore didn’t look after theirs properly! 

I wish I’d known what he had in that old shed years earlier, as a child playing in his garden. I would have pestered him years earlier about giving it to the IRRS!! 

He lived to a good age, into his 90s. He died about fifteen years ago. 

Edited Sunday at 13:57 by jhb171achill