LMS NCC / UTA "Brown Vans"

[jhb171achill]

A livery query.

"BROWN" VANS - OR WHAT?

A question for the group, particularly the older members (OK, I'm one too)...

The NCC and (early) UTA built large numbers of fitted parcels / mail vans for use on passenger trains from (as far as I know?) the mid or late 1930s up to the early 50s, known to one and all as "brown vans".

Now, many other railway companies did the same, most recently the CIE "tin vans" of the 1950s and 60s, some of which saw service almost as late as 1980.

From my own memories, plus photographic evidence, vans of any design used for purposes like this tended inevitably to be very much grubbier than the passenger stock they were attached to. I have seen in real life supposedly "blue" British Rail vans during the 1970s - actually painted in "BR Rail Blue", but covered in a thick patina of BROWN brake dust. The NCC vans in later days were painted NIR maroon, but were to all intents and purposes brown.

I have found no evidence to determine what colour the UTA painted them, going back a little further, however ex-GNR "V" van, build and used for the same purpose on that system, were painted carriage green by the UTA. Did the UTA paint the NCC vans green too, and if so, is anyone aware of any photographic evidence to back this up? Either way, the NIR maroon ones were inevitably filthy, so brown in appearance - IF the UTA had painted any of them green, this would also doubtless have been covered by a layer of filth.

Now lets go further back to when new.

It was generally the practice of most railway companies, including the LMS on the Neighbouring Island, to paint passenger train vans in carriage colour (as, also were horseboxes typically). This would tend to suggest they were LMS maroon when new - but again, they'd have got dirty and probably stayed that way.

So, my question is this: were the "brown vans" ever actually painted brown at all, and if so when? If brown, did the UTA continue with this or slap green all over them? All we know for certain is that they were painted maroon latterly by NIR - or at least any I ever saw were.

Or, were they called "brown vans" simply because they spent their working lives hiding under an ever thickening layer of (brown) brake dust weathering? It must be remembered that even old photographs can deceive about livery details for one thing, and also railway enthusiasts have a habit of making up sometimes uninformed or amateurish "nicknames" for things, which would make any railwayman wince!

As my former geography teacher might have said (and he was a railway enthusiast too), "Discuss"!

@leslie10646, did these (NCC) vans ever make it onto the Derry Road in your times there?

[Mol_PMB]

I’m away from home at the moment so don’t have access to my library. I’m sure I’ve seen a colour photo of a UTA green one. Possibly with RPSI 186 when it was at York Road?

They were built over a 20-year period and were not all identical. 
 

I think the LMS would have painted them freight bauxite (red-brown) but some of the earlier ones might have been in passenger maroon livery. 

[Darius43]

I painted one of my Provincial Wagons Brown Vans green.

Cheers

Darius

[jhb171achill]

4 hours ago, Darius43 said:

I painted one of my Provincial Wagons Brown Vans green.

Cheers

Darius

And very well it looks! 

[jhb171achill]

14 hours ago, Darius43 said:

I painted one of my Provincial Wagons Brown Vans green.

 

Cheers

Darius

Just wondering where you got the "U T" transfers and numbers - do they come with the kit?

The green colour you have used looks exactly like UTA green did on vehicles like this, or secondary carriages, when it was somewhat past its best. It tended to lose its richness after not long in traffic. When brand newly painted, it looked quite shiny and attractive.