CIE - Laminates coaching stock

[Junctionmad]

This is a area that continues to confuse, me . I was watching some of Markle videos recently, I would see coaching sets with all kinds of stuff.

 

To me the key to indientifying Cravens was the fact that the livery wrapped around the ends, Park royals are easy cause they have the distinctive tumble home ridge. But I also see coaches in these rakes, that are very like cravens, but the livery doesnt wrap around the ends.

 

AM I looking at laminates, or badly painted cravens or what

 

I also saw on that video , a Mark 2D set haulinging a dutch van ??

 

ANy clues

 

Dave

[UP6936]

Those are probably laminates and Bredins.

As for the MK2 with Dutch vans, are you sure they where MK2D air cons? As the pressure vent MK2A/B/C stock IÉ bought and refurbished from the UK ran with dutch vans converted to provide ETH

[Junctionmad]

ill see if I can take a still from the video

[BSGSV]

Re mixing Mk 2AC stock and older stock. Not an issue. All passenger stock up to Mk 3 was vacuum braked, so could work together - but the gangways of Mk 2AC were Pullman type and different from the previous British Standard gangway used. So vehicles (such as Cravens and heating vans) could be worked empty on an otherwise Mk 2AC train, say to position coaches for upcoming specials.

 

A regular combined train was the down and up Galway Day Mail which had Mk 2AC stock for the general passenger, plus a CIE TPO and heating van for the mails and their staff. No communication between the older stock and the Mk 2 part of the train.

 

Not the best pic but...

Just got to the gates in time to photograph down Heuston - Galway day mail, hauled by 086, 4th January 1993, Woodlawn, by then reduced from a block post to a gate box. The main train is Mk2AC, but at the front is the TPO with BR van providing heat and light to the Postal workers.

No connection between the two parts of the train, as the BR van and TPO have British standard gangways, the Mk2's Pullman type. All vac braked of course.

While timber framed vehicles were banned by this stage from main lines, this didn't apply to the TPO. Clearly the postal workers didn't count as passengers! Note the steam rising.

Edited December 8, 2014 by BSGSV

[Junctionmad]

so basically , anything could be run with anything on irish railways . !!!!

[islandbridgejct]

Das right - it's called interoperability. There's a lot to be said for it.

 

Some further identification notes:

Cravens had B4 bogies and big picture windows. Everything else had squarer windows.

Laminates came in 2 main types - toilet both ends with 7 windows, and toilets one end with 8 windows, commonwealth bogies.

Bredin / early CIE had a similar body profile to the laminates, with toilets in the middle and often a centre door. GSR bogies until about 1953, but they were rebuilt as vans and various things with a mix of GSR and commonwealth bogies.

Catering vehicles were numbered in the 2000s, had Bredin profile and B4 bogies for use on express trains, pre-AC coaches (=Mk 2d)

Park Royals you know about.

 

Dang, I've just got distracted again.

 

Alan

[josefstadt]

Yes, up until the introduction of the Mk II A.C. stock in 1972 all coaching stock vehicles could operate in service with each other. The Mk II A.C. stock could , as BSGSV says above, operate with non-A.C. stock but only one of the types could be in service (e.g. an A.C. train could be mixed with out of service non-A.C. stock or vice versa). Some of the pre-CIÉ stock lasted a long time. For example, GS&WR 3rd Class coach 845, which was introduced in 1907, was not withdrawn until 1971 so it could have operated alongside Park Royals, Cravens etc. The former State Coach, No. 351, had an even longer life having been built by the GS&WR in 1902 and not being withdrawn until the mid-1970s. The use of the State Coach (along with a GSV to provide power and heat) on trains composed of A.C. stock was an exception to the normal practice of only having one portion of mixed trains in service as the President could travel in 351 while regular passengers travelled in the A.C. part of the train. Having no connection between the two parts of the train was of course a security plus.

[Mayner]

Worsley Works produce a set of scratch-builder parts for two types of laminate coach the 64 seat Standard Open (one lav) and the main line Brake Standard Open. I built a couple several years ago http://www.worsleyworks.co.uk/4mm/4mm_Irish_Standard_Gauge.htm. Although quite basic the parts build into quite nice coaches. The main challenge is in forming the roof. I widened a Comet roof extrusion, while, Popeye scratch built a roof in plasticard for his Park Royal.