Operations at claremorris , signals, coal trains etc

[Junctionmad]

I was watching some you tube video of claremorris workings pre 2000 , including foynes ballina coal train and also manuala shuttle ( 071 and two coaches ! )

 

Couple of questions for knowledgable types.

 

The locos ( 121 pAir. ) seemed to detach from the foynes coal train at claremorris , and ( videos ends) either to run round or return light engine ( to where ? ) , since the train is going to ballina , can't see the purpose of the run round. Any ideas ( the train stopped at platform 3 )

 

In the shuttle video. It's clear the 071 is running round the shuttle to return. Interesting the engine is given starter signal , rather then the shunt disc, which I find strange , as this would to my understanding , require a blocking back into section , and line clear request etc. the crossover was hardly outside the claremorris limit of shunt. Of was cie casual about this sort of thing , normally starters can only be pulled off of the line ahead is clear and all signals are off into the next block ( or the train was accepted under limited acceptance rules )

 

 

Interesting the limit of shunt signals are clearly delineated at the western side of the station on the signal diagram. But not so on the eastern side ( dub, limerick etc ) funny ?

Any views ideas etc

 

How long did the coal trains run, they seemed to be containerised rather then hopper is that the case ?

 

Thanks again.

Edited May 12, 2015 by Junctionmad

[BSGSV]

The pair could have been going for juice?

Are you sure there are LOS signs at Claremorris?

The coal was in open top containers. The train was formerly coal and oil for Asahi, latterly only coal. Asahi closed in 1997. The 071 worked in on a liner, spent the day on the Ballina branch passenger and worked back to Dublin next night with the up liner. In the days when there were liners.

[Junctionmad]

The pair could have been going for juice?

Are you sure there are LOS signs at Claremorris?

The coal was in open top containers. The train was formerly coal and oil for Asahi, latterly only coal. Asahi closed in 1997. The 071 worked in on a liner, spent the day on the Ballina branch passenger and worked back to Dublin next night with the up liner. In the days when there were liners.

 

The juice tank was directly ahead near the turntable, so made no sense to detach and head back the way they came

 

Limit of shunt is marked on the signalling diagram , clearly on the western end. But not the eastern end

 

Thanks re coal train, how were they emptied ?

[BSGSV]

Coal containers were emptied by grab I believe (but I could be wrong).

I think you are confusing diagrams from different periods. The photo you put up of the diagram in latter days (in another thread) shows no limit of shunt boards. This is because there were latterly advanced starters on all routes, so the limit of shunts weren't required.

[irishthump]

Can you share the video? Don't think I've seen that one, it sounds interesting!

[Junctionmad]

Can you share the video? Don't think I've seen that one, it sounds interesting!

 

coal train , claremorris near end

 

 

 

cant find the manilla shuttle video again .....

[Junctionmad]

Coal containers were emptied by grab I believe (but I could be wrong).

I think you are confusing diagrams from different periods. The photo you put up of the diagram in latter days (in another thread) shows no limit of shunt boards. This is because there were latterly advanced starters on all routes, so the limit of shunts weren't required.

 

 

Indeed, The 60s signalling diagram shows limit of shunt and as you say the later ones were all equipped with advanced starters. ( when did that happen?), ( and you are right they were removed from the later signalling diagrams)

 

However , certainly as per Uk railways procedure, ( as I have no copy of CIE signal rules). You could not pull off starters until all signals including advanced starter ( and often interlocked with line clear) ahead were pulled off . One would have thought this is exactly why the shunt signal was installed on the signal post. Yet the main platform starter is clearly off , for the run around.

[snapper]

It looks like the shunt disk and limit of shunt at the Dublin end of Claremorris were removed at some stage, I would guess at the same time that they took out the main junction to Athenry, I can see it in the video of the 141/121 running around in 1997 but not in the video of the 071 un 2003.

 

Also given that the 121 has two tail lamps fitted I would think it was heading back towards Athenry for some other duty rather than just running around or shunting.

 

 

[Junctionmad]

It looks like the shunt disk and limit of shunt at the Dublin end of Claremorris were removed at some stage, I would guess at the same time that they took out the main junction to Athenry, I can see it in the video of the 141/121 running around in 1997 but not in the video of the 071 un 2003.

 

Also given that the 121 has two tail lamps fitted I would think it was heading back towards Athenry for some other duty rather than just running around or shunting.

 

Yes that makes sense , re the 121s ( though why would a light engine require lamps )

 

 

 

Yes the shunt signal was removed when the junction was removed , SO maybe its a case of what you have got you use, still if the interlocking was such, it would require the advanced starter to be cleared, whcoh would have required a line clear.signal from the next box up ?. It could be this was deemed unusual since the shuttle was a short lived affair and run rounds at claremorris would have been unusual

[Garfield]

Yes that makes sense , re the 121s ( though why would a light engine require lamps )

 

It was standard practice up until recently (within the last decade or so).

[BSGSV]

Indeed, The 60s signalling diagram shows limit of shunt and as you say the later ones were all equipped with advanced starters. ( when did that happen?), ( and you are right they were removed from the later signalling diagrams)

 

However , certainly as per Uk railways procedure, ( as I have no copy of CIE signal rules). You could not pull off starters until all signals including advanced starter ( and often interlocked with line clear) ahead were pulled off . One would have thought this is exactly why the shunt signal was installed on the signal post. Yet the main platform starter is clearly off , for the run around.

 

The levers associated with the advanced starters at the Westport/Sligo end, 16 and 17, were originally associated with the Ballinrobe branch and show up in O'Dea's photo of the diagram taken in 1960 (on the NLI site). So, post 1960 and a nice trawl through the weekly circulars in the IRRS library should deliver a date!

 

It was perfectly in order to clear the platform starting signal, without the advanced starter being clear (the latter being the section signal). At Claremorris, this would allow a train bound for the Athlone direction (for example) to clear Platform 1, so allowing another train to enter the platform, even if line clear hadn't been obtained from Ballyhaunis/Castlerea. The disc was to control access to the siding (56 crossover normal, 57 traps reversed).

For the shunt move being discussed, the loco could have been routed to either the Athlone or Tuam lines via the main arms on the end-of-platform bracket signal to run round, the advanced starters preventing the driver from rambling too far.

Given there was a level crossing at the Tuam end of the station (with the advanced starter slotted with the gates), I would think there were never Limit of Shunt boards that end, as there was the Advanced Starter instead.

Edited May 12, 2015 by BSGSV
material correction

[Junctionmad]

It was perfectly in order to clear the platform starting signal, without the advanced starter being clear (the latter being the section signal).

 

 

hmm, my understanding, based on UK rail signalling documents from the 60s and accepted practice there, Is that stop signals cannot be selectively used. the route must be clear. This was why calling on arms were used elsewhere. IN other words a stop signal couldn't be cleared, unless all signals ahead on the route were also cleared. The locking would prevent the platform starter from being cleared if the advanced starter wasn't cleared.

 

The only exception in UK practice is regulation 39A , where a train is brought to a stop and then the signal is cleared. ( this was typically track circuit locked )

 

The basis being that there is no way to warn the driver that the advanced is at danger

 

 

It was perfectly in order to clear the platform starting signal, without the advanced starter being clear (the latter being the section signal). At Claremorris, this would allow a train bound for the Athlone direction (for example) to clear Platform 1, so allowing another train to enter the platform, even if line clear hadn't been obtained from Ballyhaunis/Castlerea. The disc was to control access to the siding (56 crossover normal, 57 traps reversed).

 

SHunt signals merely were signals, not necessary route related. I would have said the shunt signal should have been used ( and probably was) to control run-arounds, i.e. " The disc was to control access to the siding (56 crossover normal, 57 traps reversed).", while that disc could be used in such situations, the signal merely tells the driver he can proceed, past the shunt signal in a shunt movement , it offers no route information

 

I dont follow your commentary re Athlone trains clearing Platform1. The whole basis of absolute block, is that a train cannot be accepted in that way. ( unless controlled by calling on signals). perhaps you might explain. Again I find it hard to accept that the platform starter can be cleared without the route being cleared. Semaphore signals didn't operate that way ( colour lights do )

 

 

perhaps someone has a cie rule book from the appropriate period

Edited May 12, 2015 by Junctionmad

[Junctionmad]

Is also clear that if you follow the run around video , you can see at the western end , the normal rules apply, not only does he get two shunt signals, even the calling on arm is correctly used to allow him to pass the signal above at danger and approach the rear of the train. thats text book stuff.

[BSGSV]

The locking would prevent the platform starter from being cleared if the advanced starter wasn't cleared.

The only exception in UK practice is regulation 39A , where a train is brought to a stop and then the signal is cleared. ( this was typically track circuit locked )

The basis being that there is no way to warn the driver that the advanced is at danger

 

I dont follow your commentary re Athlone trains clearing Platform1. The whole basis of absolute block, is that a train cannot be accepted in that way. ( unless controlled by calling on signals). perhaps you might explain. Again I find it hard to accept that the platform starter can be cleared without the route being cleared. Semaphore signals didn't operate that way ( colour lights do )

 

Perhaps a way to think about it, is to consider what function the Advanced Starting signals performed, if you couldn't clear the preceding Platform Starter? Why have them at all, if so? I think you answered your own question though - the signalman controls the speed of the train by bringing it to, or nearly to, a stand, before clearing the preceding stop signal, and the driver understands by that, that the stop signal ahead is against him.

 

While I would agree that there would be limited value in letting an Athlone bound train get to the Advanced Starter without line clear (the logistics of getting the staff out would be a nuisance), I would suspect in the days of sizable Pilgrimage traffic, that parking a train out there might be useful, or the equivalent at other points of the station layout.

[BSGSV]

Is also clear that if you follow the run around video , you can see at the western end , the normal rules apply, not only does he get two shunt signals, even the calling on arm is correctly used to allow him to pass the signal above at danger and approach the rear of the train. thats text book stuff.

 

But now the light engine is approaching rolling stock stabled on the track the loco is entering, so running signals would be inappropriate.

Having looked at the 071 video, the siding formerly accessed by 56 crossover and the disc are gone. So there was little option but to pull the platform starter anyway!

The pull plate on lever 31 (the disc) would tell us how it could have been used, if we ever see such a pic.

[Junctionmad]

But now the light engine is approaching rolling stock stabled on the track the loco is entering, so running signals would be inappropriate.

Having looked at the 071 video, the siding formerly accessed by 56 crossover and the disc are gone. So there was little option but to pull the platform starter anyway!

The pull plate on lever 31 (the disc) would tell us how it could have been used, if we ever see such a pic.

 

indeed the disc is gone, as I said however disc signals are just signals , so disc on the starter, while it can be used, for the headhunt etc. isn't specific to that . it just a signal ( with a proceed with caution idea ) . I dont think the use of main running signals is based purely on "rolling stock stabled on the track the loco is entering running signals would be inappropriate"

 

for example one presumes the point that was the 56 crossover, the loco was signalled to return down the loop by the use of the main dolly on the junction signal ( 61)

 

Perhaps a way to think about it, is to consider what function the Advanced Starting signals performed, if you couldn't clear the preceding Platform Starter? Why have them at all

 

your logic is certainly powerful , I shall have a think and consult the rules , I was always under the impression, that main running stop signals could not be pulled of in reverse order, i.e. except under as it was called in the UK reg 39A ( a form of calling on ) . Perhaps it was possible using the track circuit,. i.e. once the train was in the circuit at the station ( circuit 10) the platform starter could be pulled off.

 

Edited: Yes on reading further it seems that it is the function of track circuits to allow that signal to be pulled off, without the advanced starter being cleared ( and as you say does allow trains to be pulled forward , in long layouts particularly

 

The pull plate on 31, says nothing , most of the pull plates in the claremorris box, had little info. ( the lever frame is still in the box when I visited )

Edited May 12, 2015 by Junctionmad

[BSGSV]

Being fresh this morning, I suspect Junctionmad and myself have been having a nice discussion but have had a diffierent idea of what some of the topics have been...

One item/time period at a time might be useful to avoid this. The disc signal?

 

http://irishrailwaymodeller.com/showthread.php/4476-One-for-the-Signalling-Nerds

On the diagram the disc in question is worked by lever 31, at the Dublin end of Platform 1.

 

The pull plate on 31, says nothing , most of the pull plates in the claremorris box, had little info. ( the lever frame is still in the box when I visited )

Claremorris was interesting in that the lever pull plates had no descriptions of the functions at all, which is the only example I've can remember seeing. There were just the releases shown, and 31 seems to have been misleading. You would expect three routes - towards Tuam (with 54 reverse), towards Ballyhaunis (56 reverse) or the siding (57 traps reverse). So you would have thought the pull plate would show "54 or 56 or 57" at the bottom, to cover shunt moves in the particular direction.

 

http://catalogue.nli.ie/Collection/vtls000148612/Home?lookfor=claremorris&submit=Apply

Is an O'Dea photo of the diagram from 1960, and the disc in question is 52 (later used as the Advanced Starter). Other O'Dea photos show the lack of descriptions seems to have been an original feature. Sadly, the pulls on 52 aren't visible. One hopes it was better labelled than 31.

Edited May 13, 2015 by BSGSV

[Junctionmad]

Let's just summarise

 

Neither 31 or 52 have any info on the pull plate , as you say claremorris was unusual in that .

 

The disk ( originally 31, then 52) is in effect , just a shunt ahead permission, discs in them selves are not route indicators , so any of the three possible routes could be indicated by the disc. Prior to its removal , I suspect it's was used instead of the running signal for runarounds

 

The other interesting thing is why crossover 27 wasn't disc signalled , especially on the no. 2 platform road. , equally why was disc 38 added, ( ie post odea ) was this to signal runarounds from platform 2 !

 

I thing I now partially agree with you , that with the presence of track circuits , the platform starter could be pulled off if a train was standing before it. But could not be pulled off , if that immediate section before it wasnt occupied

 

It's an area of railway modelling that's so much overlooked , how to operate our models like the prototype

Edited May 13, 2015 by Junctionmad

[BSGSV]

To be clear, the unusual thing about Claremorris is the lack of function description on the lever pull plates (e.g. "Down Advanced Starter to Westport", "No. 19 Points" and such like). The releases are, as expected, on the bottoms of (some) plates. As you say, 31 had no indication latterly of anything needing to be pulled before it, but all three routes from it needed a points lever reversed, otherwise the loco would end up on the ballast. So, I would have expected that to be indicated on the lever plate of 31, but it is not so.

 

While it is common in Britain for each route from a shunt signal to be given a separate disc (stacked on top of one another, and disc reading top to bottom, route left to right), GSR/CIE tended to be cheaper, so the signalman and driver needed to be more on their toes. 31 would (I believe) have controlled a shunt movement to three routes (i.e. driver can proceed past the signal only as far as he can see the line to be clear or until he reaches the next stop signal in that direction). I agree with you that prior to removal, it would have been the appropriate signal to use for run-rounds - although the Homes 59/61 don't have a co-located disc.

 

No. 27 crossover from the down line (No.2 platform road) - you may have been expected to proceed as far as 13 and 14 discs before getting a signal, or be handsignalled before that (as it was near the cabin).

 

I suspect 38 was added to replace the previously hand signalled move from Platform 2 to the down sidings (via No. 26 crossover), probably more commonly used once diesel fuelling started down there.

[Junctionmad]

I confirmed a few things this morning, the sequence of clearing signals is home, starter then distant . Not as I expected in reverse. This is some times enforced by sequential locking , dont know if that was used in Ireland

 

in relation to Disc 31, and the platform starter , a correspondence on signal box.org, suggested that the main running signal would be used in preference to the disc, where such running signal was normally given. Since the run round required the loco to cross from platform 1 onto the main line, it would then be appropriate to use the main signal rather then the disk. The disc would then be used for applications where the running signal was not appropriate , such as to shunt in to the head shunt.

[BSGSV]

I confirmed a few things this morning, the sequence of clearing signals is home, starter then distant . Not as I expected in reverse. This is some times enforced by sequential locking , dont know if that was used in Ireland.

 

Irish railways generally didn't go overboard with such niceties as starting signal control, i.e. can't pull the starter unless a line clear has been received. On single lines, while many locations had a lock on the starting signal lever, released by a key from the ETS machine, itself released by co-operation to release a staff, it wasn't universal. Double track sections with Harper's were far from universally equipped with the equivalent. Given the busy nature of the service, it was a surprise to find so many cabins on the GNRI main line from Malahide to Drogheda, right to the end of mechanical working, relied on the signalman to follow procedures, rather than providing any additional safeguards for him.

 

To clarify, what order did you expect signals to be cleared in?

Edited May 13, 2015 by BSGSV