MGW, WLW and GSR colours

[David Holman]

Am just starting on researching a future project and am interested in the following, please:

Woodwork colours on WLW, MGW and GSR buildings

WLW carriage livery in 1900

MGW carriage livery in 1900

GSR carriage livery in the 1930s

Have Ernie Shepherd's books on the WLW and MGW, which say crimson lake for the former and brown the latter, but anything more detailed would be appreciated and as for GSR, what best describes 'purple lake'? Realise these things are subjective and rather lost in the mists of time, but any help appreciated.

[jhb171achill]

Only seeing this now.

I have no information on woodwork colours of the WLWR. being a very short lived concern, it's possible that it was a continuation of that of the W & L; I am unsure, however, of what way they painted stations.

The MGWR painted buildings, station furniture etc., with cherry red and cream or a stone colour. Station signs were either white letters on black, or navy blue enamel signs with white lettering; this, however, would fade to a creamy colour after a while.

The GSR painted stations a darkish leaf green colour, not unlike earlier CIE green; and cream. The green and cream tended to be separated on upright poles, for example, by a half-inch black line. This was continued well into CIE days, right up to the early 1960s.

In 1900, carriage liveries were as follows:

WLWR: Same as their locos, lined maroon. Carriage lining was, i believe, gold; possibly gold and black. The maroon was quite a dark shade.

MGWR: In 1900, plain mid-brown with gold lining. The blue / white livery, and the brown lined in yellow, and their variety of deep maroon, would come later.

GSR: If we're in the 1930s, a few carriages are still rattling about in CBSCR, GSWR, MGWR and DSER liveries; most within their own territories. Actual GSR livery can be summed up (and I'm focussing on, say, 1935) as follows:

1. Standard carriage livery: Deep maroon / brown, known as "crimson lake", despite being no more crimson than yellow tartan! This is now accurately shown on the ex-State saloon, No. 351, now in the care of the RPSI, and the GSWR third, No. 836, at Downpatrick (though it should be noted that the white upper panels there are not accurate for that particular type of vehicle). This would be lined in gold, with full crest, initials and carriage numbers as shown in numerous photos. This was applied to all stock except for the following. This gloomy shade was in fact the same that the GSWR had used, and probably not much darker than the maroon livery which the MGWR had had from 1918-25.

2. "Main Line" livery. This was brown and cream, both shades the same (or close enough) to the livery of the Great Western Railway in Britain. The colours were separated by a thin black line, I'd say half an inch thick. The brown came to waist height, and cream from there to the (dark grey or black) roof. Above window level were two more thin black lines - one directly above the window line, and the other just below roof level. This livery was said to be intended initially for main line corridor stock only, but I have seen a single photo (and a poor one at that) which appears to show a six-wheeled passenger brake van clad thus. It's safe to assume this was an exception of some sort, as forty years of my perusal of old photos, particularly in the collections within the IRRS when they were available to members, failed to produce a single example of anything but main line stock in brown and cream. Narrow gauge, branch line stock, all 6-wheeled passenger stock, and older bogies were all concurrently in the "crimson lake". This brown and cream livery seems to have lasted from about 1929 to 1934 or so, but with infrequent repaints of some stock, carriages in that livery were probably still to be occasionally seen at the outset of the CIE era.

3. "Steels" livery. When Edgar Bredin planned the first steel-panelled stock, which though now known as "Bredins" (despite jhb171's grandfather's scrawl being on the drawings!), were then known as "the steels", they would enter traffic in a new livery. Perhaps they were tired of copying the GWR of England, so now they produced a livery virtually identical to that of the English LMS! A lighter maroon - LMS "red" (actually a light maroon) was chosen, lined in an identical manner to the NCC, and the LMS. This had a yellow / black / yellow line below window level, with twin yellow lines above windows - again, like the brown and cream, there was one line above the windows, and another below the gutter line. All stock of all types and both gauges would gradually be repainted this way.

Thus, in 1935, it depends on what type of carriage you have. If it is older coaches, the deep purply brown. This would include non-corridor stock and all 6-wheelers. More modern wooden coaches (usually the high-roofed 1915-1925 designs) will be perhaps two thirds brown and cream, one third older purple lake. So, six models - 4 in brown and cream, 2 in lake, perhaps. Any newer Bredin type, whether suburban or main line, LMS style lined maroon.

 

In terms of being lost in the mists of time, eye witnesses may be, but accurate information survives. Livery accuracy is almost entorely ignored by preservationists, artists, even some modellers, maybe it's just not our thing in Ireland. But in Britain, they go to extraordinary lengths to get it right. Thus, and properly restored LMS coach over there - and I'm sure Precision Paints have proper LMS maroon. Equally, they'll have GWR brown and cream. The accurate GSWR colour may be seen onthe two vehicles mentioned above, but also on the large scale model dining car made by GSWR apprentices, and now on display in Cultra (surrounded by full size things inaccurately decorated!).

I hope that this is of assistance.

[KMCE]

@jhb171achill - Been searching through the archive here to get information on GSR Coaches in the 30's and this seems to be the most comprhensive I have found thus far.

I am finishing out an ex GSWR 6 Wheel all third and have gone for the deep maroon colour, but now need to look at lining.  

Any advice on what lining this type of coach would have hadi, if any?  Im assuming by this time, these would have been relegated to branch lines, and possibly commuter routes, so may not have been as "aesthetically pleasing" as mainline stock?

 

An assistance would be greatly appreicated.

Ken

[jhb171achill]

Hi Ken

If you're looking at the early 30s, a six wheeler will be lined VERY dark maroon, when weathered looking like an almost Guinnessy brownish-black with a deep maroon tint; in other words, the incredibly drab "crimson lake"!

(And some think that grey locomotives looked dull!)

From about 1933-35 onwards, they started painting them the same as LMS / NCC / BCDR maroon. A deep burgundy red, also seen on the Clogher Valley and pre-1925 Cavan & Leitrim.

If you use what modellers in England use for the LMS or (English) Midland Railway you're ok.

LINING consisted of a waistline 1/4 inch yellow / black / yellow, the middle black line slightly thicker; in fact exactly what the LMS used too! Thus, if someone does press-on LMS lining, it's the same. Also, and again the same as the LMS, above window level there was a single yellow line, with another single yellow line directly below cantrail level.

Crest was centred, as far as doors allowed, and each compartment door had a large yellow shaded "1" or "3" on it, almost without exception. The exception was on some older stock which even to the uninitiated was abviously all third - usually there would a crest off centre and a big "3" at an equivalent position at the other side; maybe it mightn't describe it better to say that if you looked at the side of the vehicle and divided the side into thirds visually, the crest and "3" were at the two places in between the three thirds.....of that even begins to make sense....

For a  GSWR example, numbers on all doors and a crest in the middle.

Unlike CIE, when coach ends were inevitably BLACK, in GSR times, coach ends were the same colour as the sides, thus, depending on whether you're in the land of 1931/32 or 1934-39, for example, the relevant shade of either crimson lake or maroon.

Be prepared, of course, for coach ends to be covere in brake dust and gunk of all sorts, with the weathering merging into the nominal grey of the roof, and the nominal black of the chassis. 

Lining was the same on both shades. From about 1940 onwards, most narrow gauge and some six-wheel and secondary stock was turned out in unlined maroon, but same crest and class numbers on doors. This was particularly prevalent on stock repainted at Albert Quay, and possible Limerick too.

Hope that helps.

 

[KMCE]

Jonathan,

 

Many thanks for that - great help,.  It will be back to the paint shop  however, as I painted the ends & roof black 

Ken

[Magpie1951]

According to an IRRS Journal I have and the Ernie Shepherd book on the MGWR the coach liveries were in 1900 plain brown unlined similar to the Great Eastern Railway (which seems to have heavily influenced Atock) and of the blue & white livery for the new Mail set introduced by Cusack.

The plain mid brown with straw lining livery came after the blue & white Livery. There is a mistake in the Ernie Shepherd book drawings for the 6 wheeler stock saying the mid brown & straw lining was before the blue & white livery but the description on the chapter on coaching stock clearly states the livery from 1890 to the early 1900's was a plain brown unlined similar to the coaching stock of the Great Eastern railway and the mid brown straw lined livery came after the blue & white livery. The IRRS article on MGWR coaching stock says the same.