UTA lining - Loco hauled carriages

[jhb171achill]

The UTA lined its loco-hauled (but not railcar) carriages in straw, which itself was lined both sides in red. 

On the BCDR Golfers’ Saloon at Downpatrick, one end still shows this; the only surviving example of UTA lining in existence. The width of the entire line is one inch. Here it is:

It might be added that the lining on most of the Whitehead RPSI carriages (yellow and red, separately), is specifically an RPSI livery. It was never meant to be a copy of UTA - it was designed as an RPSI livery. 

[Lambeg man]

Hi John,

Many thanks for all your very useful input over time on Irish railway carriage liveries. I've done a bit of digging concerning UTA carriage livery post 1958 (after the acquisition of their share of GNR stock). As you have said elsewhere, Railcars and their trailers were painted in unlined green. However it would appear that post 1958/59, only carriages classified as "A" (or "primary") stock got the yellow waistband, other non-primary stock getting the unlined green livery.

Steve 

[jhb171achill]

In practice, anything they painted was destined (hypothetically at least!) for actual use.... hence all such stock actually did end up with the lining. 

Secondary stuff, like much ex-GNR stock, got scrapped before it was repainted. Early perusals of GV St sidings and Antrim  (1964-70) failed, in my experience personally, to turn up anything without lining.

I suspect that an unlined loco-hauled livery was more aspirational than real, like many bright ideas concocted by the UTA!

It’s like the theoretical late UTA all-maroon loco coach livery; barely half a dozen coaches ever bore it - the rest remained in faded UTA green!

The lining was a straw colour with red edges. The yellow is an RPSI modern version (and I have to admit, my idea;  I can’t help wondering if I might have been better suggesting proper  UTA lining....?)

Very many thanks for your comments, Steve.

 

 

[BSGSV]

There are Nigel Mundy photographs taken at Antrim in 1967 which show carriages without lining. As they are black and white photographs the base colour is unclear. Given that the unlined ones are among others with lining and they were all photographed the same day, it is clear that the unlined ones are so, and not just that the lining has faded. On the lined ones, the straw shows up very clearly. All the carriages seem to be stored.

Edited April 17, 2019 by BSGSV

[jhb171achill]

42 minutes ago, BSGSV said:

There are Nigel Mundy photographs taken at Antrim in 1967 which show carriages without lining. As they are black and white photographs the base colour is unclear. Given that the unlined ones are among others with lining and they were all photographed the same day, it is clear that the unlined ones are so, and not just that the lining has faded. On the lined ones, the straw shows up very clearly. All the carriages seem to be stored.

Those were maroon rather than green.

They used to store old carriages there from about 1966/7 onwards, ending with old MED railcars in the 1980s awaiting scrapping.

In its last year of existence, the UTA introduced a new livery of plain maroon for steam stock, and no more than a few - maybe half a dozen or a dozen - of the best remaining stock werethis repainted. Within a year and a bit, NIR had appeared on the scene and they applied a 3 inch thick light grey below below window level, and their new logo.

The short-lived UTA maroon was much the same shade as the NIR railcars would adopt.

The UTA used their own straw-coloured (red edged) line to distinguish railcar stock from loco hauled.

Worth adding that their earlier equally short-lived light bluish-green wasn't lined, nor was it put on strictly loco-hauled stock as far as I know.

 

[Dhu Varren]

Just had a look through Derek Young's book 'The UTA in Colour', and there are a number of colour photos of service trains with unlined green coaches in the formation.

[Lambeg man]

Hello All,

May I refer members to the post 1958 UTA carriage list published in the November 2016 edition of New Irish Lines. It shows which carriages were classified as either 'A', 'B' or 'C' stock. In furtherance of my previous comment about which carriages got the straw coloured waist lining post 1958, may I present the case of the ex-GNR classification D 4's. The UTA got four of these non-corridor Brake/Second's. Two were classified 'A' stock and two were classified 'B'. Between various sources I have seen colour photographs of No. 481 (classified 'B' stock) at Lisburn 2/7/1964 - no lining and No. 483 (classified 'A' stock) at Balmoral 24/3/1964 - with lining. As I have come across any colour photo of a UTA carriage post 1958, I always check to see if my contention holds and so far it has.

Remember also that No. 398 (an ex-GNR Third), despite being classified as 'A' stock in 1958 was still in GNR mahogany livery when photographed in use on the Derry Road on 24/8/1963!

With regard to UTA all over maroon livery for hauled stock, as far as I was aware John, only TWO carriages ever made it into this livery, the All First No. 180 in 1965 and the Kitchen Car in 1969.

Have you any knowledge as to the details for the others?

[BSGSV]

For information, I picked up the photos I referred to before from eBay (other auction sites are available). There may be other Mundy photos that I haven't seen.

The carriage numbers Mr. Mundy took pics of at Antrim on 28/10/67, that I have are:

Lined: N384, N464, 338, 342, 375

Unlined: 291, 230, 385

Also lined N609 (photo Portadown 4/5/68, carriage in very poor condition with panels missing).

[jhb171achill]

4 hours ago, Lambeg man said:

 

Remember also that No. 398 (an ex-GNR Third), despite being classified as 'A' stock in 1958 was still in GNR mahogany livery when photographed in use on the Derry Road on 24/8/1963!

There would still have been quite a few in brown GNR livery up to 1965, when the Derry & Warrenpoint lives shut.

Must look at Derek’s book again....

4 hours ago, Lambeg man said:

With regard to UTA all over maroon livery for hauled stock, as far as I was aware John, only TWO carriages ever made it into this livery, the All First No. 180 in 1965 and the Kitchen Car in 1969.

Have you any knowledge as to the details for the others?

I don’t have anything to hand, but I thought I had picked up somewhere that half a dozen or so became maroon. 

Irrespective, the UTA maroon was very short lived! It was probably inspired by the “from-new” maroon and grey of the (1966) 70 class railcars.

 

[Lambeg man]

Hi BSGSV,

Many thanks for your interesting post.

"The carriage numbers Mr. Mundy took pics of at Antrim on 28/10/67, that I have are":

Lined: N384 (ex-GNR K 13, UTA stock classification 'A' - withdrawn 1970), N464 (ex-GNR L 9, UTA stock classification 'A' - withdrawn 1969), 338 (ex-NCC J 12, UTA stock classification 'B' - withdrawn 1969), 342 (ex-NCC J 12, UTA stock classification 'A' - withdrawn 1975), 375 (ex-NCC J 11, UTA stock classification 'A' - withdrawn 1969).

Unlined: 291 (ex-BCDR type 5, UTA stock classification 'A' - withdrawn 1969), 230 (ex-NCC I 3, UTA stock classification 'B' - withdrawn 1969), 385 (ex-NCC J 11, UTA stock classification 'A').

As you can see from the above (assuming the all the relevant carriages numbers are correct), three examples blow my contention about lining being restricted to only 'A' classified stock out of the water! Many thanks for taking the trouble to post. I would rather be corrected than live in mis-assumption!

Steve

[jhb171achill]

Likewise!

I never saw one of this trio..... so particularly interested in this info.

[Colin_McLeod]

On 17/4/2019 at 1:21 PM, Lambeg man said:

With regard to UTA all over maroon livery for hauled stock, as far as I was aware John, only TWO carriages ever made it into this livery, the All First No. 180 in 1965 and the Kitchen Car in 1969

If 180 was the maroon coach that was at GVS sidings beside the tobacco factory, then shortly before it was removed I rescued this GNR(I) map which was in one of the compartments.

Some pictures were also rescued by friends of mine who shall remain nameless to protect the guilty!

 

[Auto-Train Original]

On 25/10/2018 at 10:03 PM, jhb171achill said:

The UTA lined its loco-hauled (but not railcar) carriages in straw, which itself was lined both sides in red. 

On the BCDR Golfers’ Saloon at Downpatrick, one end still shows this; the only surviving example of UTA lining in existence. The width of the entire line is one inch. Here it is:

It might be added that the lining on most of the Whitehead RPSI carriages (yellow and red, separately), is specifically an RPSI livery. It was never meant to be a copy of UTA - it was designed as an RPSI livery. 

Great photo. How on earth am I ever going to mask that 1 inch line in 4mm!

[jhb171achill]

1 hour ago, Auto-Train Original said:

Great photo. How on earth am I ever going to mask that 1 inch line in 4mm!

Worry not! Some secondary stock (particularly in later years) didn't have the lining (though, to be fair, most did). If modelling UTA, I think I would try to just get an extremely thin beige line. Yellow doesn't work - no matter how thin, it looks garish.