MGWR Coach roof colours

[MikeO]

I am looking for some help with roof and chassis colours for MGWR coaches. When the MGWR changed its coach livery to dark maroon were the roof and chassis painted the livery colour?  If so would the roof have become darker due to weathering and smoke for the loco perhaps maybe appearing black or very dark grey? In a 2015 thread about a potential layout based on Mulrany it was mentioned that some coach roofs may have been white initially but did not stay that colour very long.

In regard to the state coach would its roof and chassis follow the same colouring rules as the other coaches?

MikeO

[jhb171achill]

16 hours ago, MikeO said:

I am looking for some help with roof and chassis colours for MGWR coaches. When the MGWR changed its coach livery to dark maroon were the roof and chassis painted the livery colour?  If so would the roof have become darker due to weathering and smoke for the loco perhaps maybe appearing black or very dark grey? In a 2015 thread about a potential layout based on Mulrany it was mentioned that some coach roofs may have been white initially but did not stay that colour very long.

In regard to the state coach would its roof and chassis follow the same colouring rules as the other coaches?

MikeO

All MGWR coach chassis were black; in fact, as far as I know, with the exception of a few CIE new-builds in 1955/6, all Irish passenger-carrying vehicles, “full-stop”, had fully black chassis.

When the MGWR’s dark lake (very dark maroon) came into being in 1918, I have no clear information about roofs, but they were probably painted in the white lead, which darkened almost immediately and then got blackened with smoke. Carriage ends were maroon, just as carriage ends had also been brown when that livery was the norm.

So, yes, a dull grey would suit carriage roofs well.

That actually raises an issue; when general carriage roofs in the 1890-1920 era are described as “white”, e.g. with the GNR, it was actually actually white lead paint, for waterproofing. That was in fact a very pale grey rather than pure white. We see white roofs on model WAGONS all the time (thanks to Hornby!) but this is inaccurate for Ireland anyway.

The state coach did indeed follow the norm. It skipped GSR livery and remained in MGWR maroon until it got its first and only cost of green in the late 50s, just a couple of years before it was inexplicably scrapped! There’s a photo of it in MGWR livery on P96 of Ernie Shepherd’s book on the Midland.

The late Des Coakham described it as being by that stage “a dullish red”. The roof is clearly a darkened grey.

[MikeO]

Thanks JHB very useful information as usual.

I do not have the Ernie Shepard book but do have Desmond Coakham's book which has two photos of the MGWR state carriage (per Mr Coakham in its CIE Green livery). While the photos are in black and white, the whole coach looks to be the same shade which led me to think that the roof and chassis were also green. Just proves how deceptive photos can be. Given the curvature of the roof of the MGWR state carriage I thought it would also be dark maroon, the roof lends itself to have the livery wrap over it.

 

MikeO

[jhb171achill]

1 hour ago, MikeO said:

Thanks JHB very useful information as usual.

I do not have the Ernie Shepard book but do have Desmond Coakham's book which has two photos of the MGWR state carriage (per Mr Coakham in its CIE Green livery). While the photos are in black and white, the whole coach looks to be the same shade which led me to think that the roof and chassis were also green. Just proves how deceptive photos can be. Given the curvature of the roof of the MGWR state carriage I thought it would also be dark maroon, the roof lends itself to have the livery wrap over it.

 

MikeO

Yes, MikeO, black and white photos can completely deceive without separate background info!

Almost without exception, CIE painted carriage ends black, like the chassis (and often the roof). But this Midland beauty had the green round the ends. I think that in CIE days the roof was black or very dark (loco?) grey. But in Midland livery it had the lighter roof.

[Andy Cundick]

Personally i wouldn't bother too much about what colour the roof was painted as it would soon of ended up a grotty grey/black colour.Andy

[MikeO]

Thanks for you comment Andy. I normally do not have an issue with roof as most coaches would end up dirty black or grey. For the state carriage I had thought that because it did not get used often and was a prestigious vehicle it might be more "colour co-ordinated" to emphasise the important role it played in the fleet.

It will likely turn out to be a mid to darkish grey for the roof and a fairly dark grey for the chassis.

 

MikeO

[Andy Cundick]

From personal experience most underframes end up a browny grey black from muck and brakedust.Andy.

[jhb171achill]

12 minutes ago, Andy Cundick said:

From personal experience most underframes end up a browny grey black from muck and brakedust.Andy.

Very much so.

Like a whitish roof on a carriages, a pristine-painted black chassis on a coach will be "weathered" almost on its first journey out of the paint shop.

Also why it was sometimes hard to tell whether a very workstained locomotive was originally black or grey, especially in a black and white photo....!

[Andy Cundick]

It was always interesting to see the variations of Blue on 08 shunters coming into Swindon and leaving,pick a shade of blue!.ANdy.