GNR(I) K24 Coach purpose

[MikeO]

In a recent thread about roof vents I mentioned that the GNR(I) K24 coach was part of the Enterprise set circa 1948 as reported by Desmond Coakham. He referred to it as "...K24 Buffet....". In the same thread I described it as a side corridor third based on the drawing in the IRRS book Great Northern Railway (Ireland) Part 3b: High Roof Bogie Carriages post 1930.

 

Does anyone know whether it started out as a third class coach and was converted to a Buffet car or vice-versa.

 

MikeO

[jhb171achill]

I have a notion that it started life as a K15 open 3rd. I'd have to check. A further dim flicker in the back of what passes as a mind suggests that it had another incarnation in between, or possibly afterwards.

 

Rebuilding of coaches, often one-offs, from one thing to another was common in old days. All that was required was a decent joiner in the works. The iconic MGWR dining car, for example, ended up as an ordinary coach, having had three separate lives, including substantially re-arranged window spacings and - I think - different bogies.

 

Even in the 1950s and 60s, six wheelers were being altered as all-van, and the unique Park Royal driving car for AEC railcars on the Tramore line, as well as the unique laminate conversion passenger brake for the Loughrea line (with storage heaters) are well known.

[jhb171achill]

It reminds me of an earlier post I made at some stage, pointing out that until the "Supertrain" and Hunslet Enterprise era (early 70s), a train with no two carriages alike was common, and the norm in some places, whereas a train of uniform stock was almost unknown.

 

jhb171Senior recalled being at Stranorlar on a day when there were a couple of excursions plus a service train which would normally have three trains, but was strengthened to six. The service train had two railcars trailing four carriages, and they were labouring hard as the train was packed. One excursion was a motley collection of three railcars and three steam carriages, while the other was a steam engine with about seven bogies and a guard's van. As far as he could ascertain, no two vehicles were alike!

 

I saw a CIE train in the 1970s leaving Port Laoise with a pair of 141s up front; the same was the case, almost - I think there might have been two Cravens - the rest was one each of three varieties of laminate, one Park Royal and one Bredin! A Dutch van was at one end and a tin van at the other!

 

And my only ever non-RPSI or IRRS run from Limerick to Ballina saw 147 hauling two laminates, each of a different design, and a rickety and filthy tin van........

 

Ah! the memories of an oul wan.

[leslie10646]

In a recent thread about roof vents I mentioned that the GNR(I) K24 coach was part of the Enterprise set circa 1948 as reported by Desmond Coakham. He referred to it as "...K24 Buffet....". In the same thread I described it as a side corridor third based on the drawing in the IRRS book Great Northern Railway (Ireland) Part 3b: High Roof Bogie Carriages post 1930.

 

Does anyone know whether it started out as a third class coach and was converted to a Buffet car or vice-versa.

 

MikeO

 

Mike

 

Richard, who produces the IRRS drawing books is abroad at the moment. I'll get him to answer this on his return. My memory is that he has full details of what got converted to railcar trailers.

 

Leslie

[MikeO]

jhb and Leslie

 

Thanks for your comments. The K15s seem to have been built in batches from about 1935 according to Coakham. He states on page 51 halfway down the first column that K23s became K15 and L14. In the next sentence he says "Two were made Buffet cars, reusing the K23 mark that was also given to two conversions from K15." The IRRS book shows 2 types of K23 coaches one type is numbered 97 and 127, the same numbers found in the K15 list in the same book. The second type is numbered 170 and 188 which appear in the K23 list. These four are Rail car trailers and seem to have a bar instead of tea facilities. There is no mention of any conversions to K24 Buffet cars. The IRRS book shows the K24 third as being built in the 1940s. The last figure is missing so I cannot be more precise with the year. It is possible that the Buffet Car is a K20 numbered 124 or one of the 2 K16 Buffet Cars. Hopefully Richard will have the answer.

 

MikeO

[jhb171achill]

I may have info in the Catacombs upstairs. Must delve......

[Kirley]

The only reference I can find to a K24 describes it as length 62' over the buffers, Side Corridor, 64 seats, High Elliptical Roof, Vestibule, No. 220, built 1948, withdrawn 1972 by CIE. This is from GNRI Classification of Coaching Stock 1944 with post 1944 Supplement. There is a note in the Supplement "K.24(220) - 48 Thirds, seats 64 with arm rest up" not sure what that means.

[Mayner]

The only reference I can find to a K24 describes it as length 62' over the buffers, Side Corridor, 64 seats, High Elliptical Roof, Vestibule, No. 220, built 1948, withdrawn 1972 by CIE. This is from GNRI Classification of Coaching Stock 1944 with post 1944 Supplement. There is a note in the Supplement "K.24(220) - 48 Thirds, seats 64 with arm rest up" not sure what that means.

 

Basically means the railway could cram another 16 passengers into the coach when the armrests were raised. Interesting that the GNR was still building more expensive side corridor coaches more than 12 years after building the much cheaper to build K15 open stock

[leslie10646]

Despite Richard McLachlan, the IRRS's drawings man, being in Munich, he has replied!

 

"I carry around copies of all of my electronically published books (a few of the early ones are very much printed only but will be updated in time). The same disk has a set of Journals except for the last 2 or 3 years, and other useful stuff.

 

Start with Journal No. 2 - side corridor 3rd coaches were not used on the first (Enterprise) train.

 

There is no evidence of any diagram of it with any form of kitchen. Both Stephen Rafferty (the blue book published by The Syndicate) and a similar exercise conducted by Gerry Beesley from official documents in 1975 simply show that the one example appeared in 1946 as side-corridor, went to CIE, stayed as a 'steam' (or diesel loco) coach and was scrapped in 1972. Both Steve and Gerry agree on the scrapping year. No mention of any catering use, such as Tea Car.

 

In Journal 24, there is a long article on catering vehicles by L H Liddle. No mention of coach 220 - the only K24 ever built.

 

I have to conclude that Desmond may not have been right or somewhere along the way to the printers K23 got changes to K24. The second use of K23 was for light-ish capacity catering vehicles created by rebuilding some of the the original K23 workmen coaches.

 

Don't know if this helps but my drawing books and Gerry's work are straight from company info. Liddle also probably had a lot of direct live information from the GNR.

 

I suspect a misprint."

Edited February 28, 2017 by leslie10646

[jhb171achill]

All adds to a post I made elsewhere about in the past most passenger trains hardly had two carriages the same.

 

I could have added to that the four reasons this was so:

 

(1) whatever was usable went into traffic

 

(2) all couplings on ALL railway vehicles were he same; now, hardly any two carriage types have the same coupling - a seriously retrograde step.

 

(3) The sheer variety! As recently as the mid 1980s CIE had six or more varieties of wooden framed stock plus Cravens, plus Mk 2 and Mk 3 sets. Now, its two types of loco hauled coach (100% of which only operate, one type each, on 2 lines (Belfast & Cork)), three types of local railcars and ICRs! (And no, the fact that some are 3 car and some 5 just doesn't cut it for variety!).

 

(4) Going back to the above, many vehicles in all companies were quite simply, like above, one-offs! Or there were maybe 2 or 3 of the type.... The GSR Pullman cars, for example, never operated as single train. They had one in each service, along with a motley collection of everything else from then-modern "Bredins" to ancient six wheelers of many numerous types.

[MikeO]

Thanks to all for your contributions to this thread. I will make up a K20 as the Buffet Car for my Enterprise set. the K24 that I have made can be used for local traffic.

 

MikeO