power going to "dead" track

[derek]

Hi, just wondering if anyone can tell me what is going on with my layout? If I run a train on the black section and have a "dormant"one sitting in the red section, both trains will move although both points are switched to the black section. If I run the outer loop and sit a loco at point X, I dont have a problem. Layout is powered by  cheap and cheerful Hornby analogue controllers. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks

[DJ Dangerous]

Maybe post a photo of the underside of the points themselves. What points are they?

[Broithe]

3 hours ago, derek said:

Layout is powered by  cheap and cheerful Hornby analogue controllers.

More than one controller?

[DJ Dangerous]

22 minutes ago, Broithe said:

More than one controller?

I assume that he has double track, using one controller for each track, using points and crossovers for the loop?

[derek]

Here is a pic of the full layout. Points are hornby straight points. Cant show underside as they are fixed and ballasted. Two loops with a controller for each.

[Signal Post]

Can you confirm that when you have both points set for the outer mainline (i.e. the black track in the diagram) that a train will run around the complete oval without entering the red loop and that this will work in either direction (i.e. if you reverse the direction of travel by using the switch on the controller) without any problem affecting that train/loco?

That may sound a bit complicated, what I mean is if you send a train from the "bottom" of the diagram through the points that you have labelled as "L/H Point" along the single black line in the diagram past point X then through the "R/H Point" and on up to the top of the diagram and then change the direction of travel (with the controller) and travel in the reverse direction all the way from top to bottom?

Ideally if you could put up photo of both L/H and R/H points points this might be a help.

Also do you know if the points are Hornby or a different brand?

[murrayec]

Is there a DCC spring wire in one of the problem points? this would keep the siding track live!

Eoin

 

[derek]

On 15/2/2023 at 9:03 PM, Signal Post said:

Can you confirm that when you have both points set for the outer mainline (i.e. the black track in the diagram) that a train will run around the complete oval without entering the red loop and that this will work in either direction (i.e. if you reverse the direction of travel by using the switch on the controller) without any problem affecting that train/loco?

That may sound a bit complicated, what I mean is if you send a train from the "bottom" of the diagram through the points that you have labelled as "L/H Point" along the single black line in the diagram past point X then through the "R/H Point" and on up to the top of the diagram and then change the direction of travel (with the controller) and travel in the reverse direction all the way from top to bottom?

Ideally if you could put up photo of both L/H and R/H points points this might be a help.

Also do you know if the points are Hornby or a different brand?

Yes I understand what you are asking and I can confirm that  a loco will run in both directions on the "black" oval without entering the "red" section. The points are Hornby straight left and right hand points. Here are some pics (not sure if they help) First l/hpoints and then r/h. Incidentally I have the same set up at the station and have no problems. I think I may have to dig out one or both of the points in queston and replace them.

1 minute ago, derek said:

Yes I understand what you are asking and I can confirm that  a loco will run in both directions on the "black" oval without entering the "red" section. The points are Hornby straight left and right hand points. Here are some pics (not sure if they help) First l/hpoints and then r/h. Incidentally I have the same set up at the station and have no problems. I think I may have to dig out one or both of the points in queston and replace them.

sorry here are the r/h points

[Broithe]

Have a look at the little humped spring blades at the end of the moveable rails away from the hinge. If one, or both,  of them is still touching the 'disconnected' rail, then it will supply power.

 

[Signal Post]

The photos are very useful (well done on your scenic work by the way), firstly they seem to confirm the absence of DCC track spring wires from the points (as suggested by murrayec above). I’m not sure how familiar you are with these springs but they are used to convert Hornby points for DCC, the spring clips are seen quite clearly in the photo below next to the fingers, but I don’t see any sign of these on your points.

 

So hopefully that eliminates one of the possible causes of your problem and leads to the next likely cause, here is what I think is happening:

Hornby points use a spring clip attached to the switch rails (also known as switch blades), this spring clip keeps the switch rail tight to it’s adjacent main rain when the points are set for that direction, this is for two purposes, firstly so that the wheels run smoothly over the points without de-railing and secondly, since the switch rail takes the current from the rail that it is in contact with and feeds it to the required rail leading out of the points, in the diagram below the current goes from point C via the blue switch rail in the diagram to point D with the points set as shown for the main line. When the points are set for the siding current flows from point E via the green switch rail to point F. 

 

With the points set as shown above for the main line the green rail is away from its adjacent main rail at E and because of this should be disconnected from track power (Broithe above refers to this as the disconnected rail). 
What appears to be happening on your layout is that the “green” rail is physically moving away from the fixed rail but is remaining electrically connected to it, probably due to the spring clip touching it.

I have drawn a diagram of a cross-section of the points between points C and D, Fig 1 shows the points set for the siding with the green rail held in contact with rail B by the spring clip below it.

 

Fig 2 shows the points set for the main line , the green rail has moved away from the black one and it is electrically disconnected from it (this is how it should be).

 

Fig 3 shows what I suspect is happening on your layout where the green rail is physically away from the black rail but it remains connected to it electrically by way of the metal spring clip.

Fig 5 (don’t ask me why I didn’t label it as Fig 4!) shows an exploded view of the clip (coloured red), I suspect that it may have been bent very slightly upwards, this could have been caused by ballast hardening immediately underneath the clip and preventing the clip from being pushed down as the switch rail moves above it thereby distorting the clip somewhat.

 

The solution to this would be to remove (most) of the ballast from directly below the clip. Having done this then press very gently on the clip so as to ensure that there is no connection between the switch rail and the clip and then try running a loco on the main line (anywhere on the main line will do, it doesn’t need to cross the points) and see if the loco in the loop moves, you may need to press the clip on both of the points (i.e. at opposite ends of the loop) at the same time (if both points have been similarly affected) whilst simultaneously using the controller, this will probably require a huge amount of dexterity or the aid of a pretty assistant!
 

If that is successful but the problem continues when you are not pressing gently on the clip then the outermost part of the clip (I.e. the free end) will need to be bent back into position, this will require great care as the clip still needs to be tight when the rail is set for the siding, possibly a paper clip or similar placed under the “hump” of the spring (without bending it) whilst gently pressing the free end down a little, it is likely that the amount of movement required will be very small.

Hope this is of some help.

 

Edited February 20, 2023 by Signal Post

[derek]

On 20/2/2023 at 4:54 PM, Signal Post said:

The photos are very useful (well done on your scenic work by the way), firstly they seem to confirm the absence of DCC track spring wires from the points (as suggested by murrayec above). I’m not sure how familiar you are with these springs but they are used to convert Hornby points for DCC, the spring clips are seen quite clearly in the photo below next to the fingers, but I don’t see any sign of these on your points.

 

So hopefully that eliminates one of the possible causes of your problem and leads to the next likely cause, here is what I think is happening:

Hornby points use a spring clip attached to the switch rails (also known as switch blades), this spring clip keeps the switch rail tight to it’s adjacent main rain when the points are set for that direction, this is for two purposes, firstly so that the wheels run smoothly over the points without de-railing and secondly, since the switch rail takes the current from the rail that it is in contact with and feeds it to the required rail leading out of the points, in the diagram below the current goes from point C via the blue switch rail in the diagram to point D with the points set as shown for the main line. When the points are set for the siding current flows from point E via the green switch rail to point F. 

 

With the points set as shown above for the main line the green rail is away from its adjacent main rail at E and because of this should be disconnected from track power (Broithe above refers to this as the disconnected rail). 
What appears to be happening on your layout is that the “green” rail is physically moving away from the fixed rail but is remaining electrically connected to it, probably due to the spring clip touching it.

I have drawn a diagram of a cross-section of the points between points C and D, Fig 1 shows the points set for the siding with the green rail held in contact with rail B by the spring clip below it.

 

Fig 2 shows the points set for the main line , the green rail has moved away from the black one and it is electrically disconnected from it (this is how it should be).

 

Fig 3 shows what I suspect is happening on your layout where the green rail is physically away from the black rail but it remains connected to it electrically by way of the metal spring clip.

Fig 5 (don’t ask me why I didn’t label it as Fig 4!) shows an exploded view of the clip (coloured red), I suspect that it may have been bent very slightly upwards, this could have been caused by ballast hardening immediately underneath the clip and preventing the clip from being pushed down as the switch rail moves above it thereby distorting the clip somewhat.

 

The solution to this would be to remove (most) of the ballast from directly below the clip. Having done this then press very gently on the clip so as to ensure that there is no connection between the switch rail and the clip and then try running a loco on the main line (anywhere on the main line will do, it doesn’t need to cross the points) and see if the loco in the loop moves, you may need to press the clip on both of the points (i.e. at opposite ends of the loop) at the same time (if both points have been similarly affected) whilst simultaneously using the controller, this will probably require a huge amount of dexterity or the aid of a pretty assistant!
 

If that is successful but the problem continues when you are not pressing gently on the clip then the outermost part of the clip (I.e. the free end) will need to be bent back into position, this will require great care as the clip still needs to be tight when the rail is set for the siding, possibly a paper clip or similar placed under the “hump” of the spring (without bending it) whilst gently pressing the free end down a little, it is likely that the amount of movement required will be very small.

Hope this is of some help.

 

On 19/2/2023 at 12:43 PM, derek said:

Yes I understand what you are asking and I can confirm that  a loco will run in both directions on the "black" oval without entering the "red" section. The points are Hornby straight left and right hand points. Here are some pics (not sure if they help) First l/hpoints and then r/h. Incidentally I have the same set up at the station and have no problems. I think I may have to dig out one or both of the points in queston and replace them.

sorry here are the r/h points

[derek]

sorry, dont know how that last post appeared. Anyway thanks for the help lads, especially that extremely  one from Signalpost. Really went the extra mile to help. I think those clips could be the problem okay. When I switch the power to  the main oval I have to use a little piece of wood to keep  the blade fully connected ( the little black set up just before the bridge) so I think that  left hand points is definitely not operating properly. I cant get near it until the weekend, but when I do  will report back. Thanks for the kind words too on the scenery, although I,m not too  sure myself. The bridge and tunnel facings were made of 6mm mdf, with a wood chisel used to carve out stonework. I have since discovered the joys of modelling clay and intend to replace the bridge at least. Here is another bridge on same layout from clay. Thanks again 

[derek]

happy to report that both loops are now working indepently and properly. Taking both of your advice I removed some ballast from under the suspect left hand point clips,  and lo and behold I can now isolate each loop as I wish . Thanks for the helpful replies