Irish equivalents of mainland British locos and rolling stock

[David Holman]

A new question for the historically minded among you. While I'm well aware of certain steam locos and modern locos and coaching stock being essentially common to both sides of the water, I'm wondering if this was also the case for steam era wagons? Looking through a wide range of photos, it seems that most open wagons were 4 or 6 plank, rather than 3, 5 or 7 favoured by the 'mainland'. However, it would be interesting to know if there were wagons built by independent companies that got used both sides of the water - vans too. There are lots of kits out there and if any could be used for Irish models, I for one would be very grateful, much as I'm happy to scratchbuild. Likewise RTR, even in my preferred 7mm scale, where some things are almost ludicrously cheap. Dapol 7 plank opens, for example are barely more than a Slaters or Parkside kit. Makes you wonder.

Have got the 'Modelling Irish Railways' book and though very useful the section on converting kits and RTR seems to indicate a fair few compromises are needed and though no rivet counter, I do like things to look right from two feet away, or so.

Am now going back to study the GA drawing of a Large Tank and dribble. Sad or what?

[Mayner]

Most of the stock would have been custom built to an Irish specification even by builders and finance companies like Metropolitan & Bristol carriage and wagon.

 

The solebars on 4 & 6 wheel stock would have been further apart and the headstocks and cross members would have been longer on account of the wider gauge, the GNR raan into problems re-gauge some ex LMS coaches during the 1940s

 

Charles Roberts and other manufacturers supplied wagons similar to Slaters cylindrical tank wagon, the underframe may need modification for the wider gauge. The LMS supplied some ex-Mildland vans to the NCC but they appear to have been the steel underframed variety different to the Slaters kit version.

[David Holman]

Interesting & many thanks. Will keep on scratchbuilding...

Good to know such knowledge spans the entire globe.

[jhb171achill]

There would be extremely few exact parallels, David, though many approximations. The NCC had two LMS "Jinty" 0.6.0 tank engines (regauged, obviously), and a number of ex-LMS coaches shipped in after "native" stock was destroyed when Belfast was bombed in WW2. The GSR had a couple of locos brought from GB - I think of LNW origin, but I'd have to look it up. The Tri-ang Hornby clerestorey roofed carriages with curved ends bear a passing resemblance to the style of several (of the few) bogies coaches on the Waterford & Limerick - though to make them look even more authentic, get rid of the clerestorey. Some LMS carriage kits I've seen over the years bear a reasonable resemblance to some of the older GSWR stock, though you could only use the sides as the width is too obviously narrower. BR Mk 2 and 3 carriages look OK if repainted into orange and black, and the former in NIR livery (as an Enterprise set of the 1970s / 1980s) looks the part. In terms of wagons, the same applies. As Mayner says, Irish companies generally supplied their own designs, but these were often not unlike British equivalents, so a decent repaint can make some of them look OK - at least until you get proper ones built!

[minister_for_hardship]

Jhb, the LNWR locos were brought over by the DW&WR.

 

'Accoiding to Clements and McMahon six former Webb 2-4-2Ts were sold to the Dublin, Wicklow & Wexford Railway in 1902. The price was £1550 per locomotive. Nos. 59-63 were returned to Britain in 1916-17. No. 64 was acquired by the GSR, but before that it had participated in the Civil War when it was armoured and named Faugh-a-ballagh.For a time it was used at the Mallow sugar beet factory and led a protracted existence as a boiler for washing outs at Inchicore. The locomotive had begun as a 2-4-0T in 1877 and was rebuilt as a 2-4-2T in 1896. '

 

Other LNWR stock was used on the Dundalk, Newry & Greenore, a wholly owned subsidiary in modern speak, of the LNWR. Some Wolverton built 6 wheelers were sold off the DN&GR and saw further service on the Cork & Bandon section in GSR days at least. I imagine the wagons were the same as the LNWR ones?

 

Also, the CB&SCR had a number of Beyer Peacock 0-6-0STs similar in design to those used on the LSWR. I think 1 or 2 of them made it into GSR times. Another oddball that made it into GSR stock and very early CIE days was former Allman's Distillery 0-4-0ST, a 'Beaufort' type Peckett a pretty much off the shelf product I think (apart from regauging)

 

Having said that, all the above are not RTR, I'd imagine you could get LNWR 6 wheelers in kit form.

Edited April 17, 2013 by minister_for_hardship

[jhb171achill]

Yes, I would think so, Minister. I think I have also seen a kit of some sort of British six-wheel coach which would be more than acceptable as a GSWR type. GNR(I) carriages were in a few cases not unlike some earlier GNR (England) ones.

[Mayner]

Jhb, the LNWR locos were brought over by the DW&WR.

 

'Accoiding to Clements and McMahon six former Webb 2-4-2Ts were sold to the Dublin, Wicklow & Wexford Railway in 1902. The price was £1550 per locomotive. Nos. 59-63 were returned to Britain in 1916-17. No. 64 was acquired by the GSR, but before that it had participated in the Civil War when it was armoured and named Faugh-a-ballagh.For a time it was used at the Mallow sugar beet factory and led a protracted existence as a boiler for washing outs at Inchicore. The locomotive had begun as a 2-4-0T in 1877 and was rebuilt as a 2-4-2T in 1896. '

 

Other LNWR stock was used on the Dundalk, Newry & Greenore, a wholly owned subsidiary in modern speak, of the LNWR. Some Wolverton built 6 wheelers were sold off the DN&GR and saw further service on the Cork & Bandon section in GSR days at least. I imagine the wagons were the same as the LNWR ones?

 

Also, the CB&SCR had a number of Beyer Peacock 0-6-0STs similar in design to those used on the LSWR. I think 1 or 2 of them made it into GSR times. Another oddball that made it into GSR stock and very early CIE days was former Allman's Distillery 0-4-0ST, a 'Beaufort' type Peckett a pretty much off the shelf product I think (apart from regauging)

 

Having said that, all the above are not RTR, I'd imagine you could get LNWR 6 wheelers in kit form.

 

The WLWR built a pair of 2-4-2T for the North Kerry that have a striking resemblence to the LNWR 5'6" tanks which may be available in kit form from GEM of London Road Models. The GSWR sold one of the locos to the Macroom railway both ended up in GSR service.

 

Modelling 64 or 427 from a GEM or London Road kit would involve a lot of work as she was rebuilt with a large boiler and DSER style cab similar to the Grand Canal Street locos.

 

Converting a British outline model to run on 21 or 36.5mm broad gauge track involves a lot of work and it may be simpler to scratch build than modify. Many 4mm kits and rtr models are designed for OO and it can be difficult enough to provide sufficient clearance for EM or S4 let alone Irish Broad gauge.

Edited April 18, 2013 by Mayner

[David Holman]

Many thanks for all the replies - was hoping that a Parkside or Slaters conversion/adaptation might be possible, but looks like scratchbuilding & resin casting will be the way forward for now. For anyone working in 7mm scale, the Alphagraphix catalogue has a growing range of etched brass kits from the Tyrconnel range, including several 6 wheel coaches and a Bandon 32' bogie. Add in Timoleague locos Argadeen & St Molga, plus Elf, Fairy and a Bandon 4-6-0T and there is some nice stuff available. Haven't built any of the coaches, but the E class 0-6-0T which is also in the range was very simple to put together & has a reasonable amount of detail, plus all the names and numbers for the class too.

Would be nice to see some wagons for 7mm scale, though again the Alphagraphix card kits are a good starting point.