Bogie flat wagons with steel floors 30091-30098 - photos?

[Mol_PMB]

Has anyone got any photos of the 42' bogie flat wagons with steel floors built in 1972 - numbers 30091-30098?

There's one image in Doyle&Hirsch but it's not very large or clear. 

They appear to have been based on the normal 42' container flat, with a floor added, but there are other detail differences such as stakes and perhaps some chain pockets. They may also have had fewer ISO spigots - the photo isn't clear enough to tell. 

I'm wondering about a conversion of a 42' container flat into one of these, but at present I don't have enough information.

[flange lubricator]

Here is a page from modern railways 1972 with a couple of other interesting wagons.

Edited January 11 by flange lubricator

[Mol_PMB]

1 hour ago, flange lubricator said:

Here is a page from modern railways 1972 with a couple of other interesting wagons.

Ah, wonderful, many thanks! It looks like they have a full complement of mounting brackets for ISO spigots, and that the stakes can alternatively be slotted into these brackets. This picture has more stakes fitted than the Doyle & Hirsch image.

Then between or below the brackets, there are 7 chain/stake pockets each side. The steel floor's not so obvious from this angle, but is better shown in the Doyle & Hirsch image.

Now, should I start with an IRM model or an SSM kit? They've both got the right sort of frame and the wrong sort of bogies!

 

[flange lubricator]

The IRM model is based on the later LP wagon which has the Sambre et Meuse bogies the earlier wagons had the Ride control bogies so the SSM model or shapeways one with bogies from  Cumbrian model rail might be the better option . 

[Mol_PMB]

4 minutes ago, flange lubricator said:

The IRM model is based on the later LP wagon which has the Sambre et Meuse bogies the earlier wagons had the Ride control bogies so the SSM model or shapeways one with bogies from  Cumbrian model rail might be the better option . 

Sort of, but it's a bit more complicated.

The frame of the IRM wagon is the correct type for the 30001-30091 series with Ride Control bogies. But they have supplied it with (very nice) Sambre et Meuse bogies.

The SSM one is also the same hybrid as far as I can tell!

For the wagon with the floor I will definitely be replacing the bogies whichever model I start with. Cambrian do some which are pretty close, their code C72, but I think they might be 6' wheelbase rather than 2m wheelbase, and they're a bit more peaked in the middle. They'd probably look OK with the smaller wheels of a container wagon and my challenge will be to use the IRM wheelsets with rotating axle end caps in the Cambrian sideframes!

For my other 42' flats I will either change the bogies or modify the solebars.

 

The 30001-30091 batch frames have a plain solebar over the bogies:

But on the later batch with Sambre et Meuse bogies, the solebar is cut away to provide more clearance for the larger bogie sideframes, with some reinforcing ribs:

Whereas both IRM and SSM have the Sambre et Meuse bogies under a plain solebar:

http://www.studio-scale-models.com/img/K47.jpg

 

I know this is a 47' wagon but this photo clearly shows why the cutaway is needed!

 

This photo from Jonathan Allen on Flickr also shows that some wagons had a different arrangement of the diagonal ribs betweeen the buffers and the bogie centrepivot. Easier to see if you click on the photo to view it in Flickr and then zoom in.

The nearer two wagons have Ride Control bogies and the arrangement of diagonals as in the first photo above (which is how IRM have modelled it) while the next three wagons have Sambre et Meuse bogies and a different arrangement of the diagonals.

However, I don't think the alternative diagonal rib arrangement was used on all wagons with Sambre et Meuse bogies because both of these two seem to have the same ribe:

Many of the wagons with Sambre et Meuse bogies later had thin steel plates (splashers / spark guards) provided above the bogies, which concealed the type of diagonal bracing anyway.

 

The IRM wagons also have more spigot brackets than any of the 42' wagons originally did; I think these are genuine as a later mod for carrying kegs, but weren't present in the 1970s-1990s period.

Some wagons had even fewer spigot brackets; this is 30288 with only 6 each side:

 

[flange lubricator]

Here are some pictures of 30091 in Mallow in 2019 prior to it being scrapped. You can clearly see the checker plate floor so you won’t be able to see the ribs anyway . 

[Mol_PMB]

Ah, that's brilliant, many thanks!

I see it had lost its chain pockets by that stage - maybe just put into normal container-carrying service?

There are various suppliers of etched brass chequer plate, it's great to see how it was arranged on those photos.

[flange lubricator]

One of my own 30001 LP wagons (shapeways)  with Cambrian Model rail ride control bogies and round buffers as built in 1971 . 

Edited January 11 by flange lubricator

[Mol_PMB]

18 hours ago, flange lubricator said:

One of my own 30001 LP wagons (shapeways)  with Cambrian Model rail ride control bogies and round buffers as built in 1971 . 

That looks great - and it's good to see what the Cambrian bogies look like in situ under a 42' flat and painted brown - they look right! As you mention, the round buffers are another feature needed for back-dating. I think all the 42' flats had round buffers initially, even the late 1970s batch with S+M bogies.

 

Here's a scan of the image in Doyle&Hirsch:

 

 

 

[Ironroad]

As I've been reading this thread I must admit to being a bit confused by the nuances. Can we clarify which of these flats IRM modelled in their Project 42 ?

[Mol_PMB]

12 minutes ago, Ironroad said:

As I've been reading this thread I must admit to being a bit confused by the nuances. Can we clarify which of these flats IRM modelled in their Project 42 ?

Sorry! It's complicated.

IRM didn't actually model the ones with steel floors; I was looking for information to do a conversion to represent that type.

But for the ones without steel floors, there were two main groups:

30001-30090, built 1971-1972. These had Ride Control bogies.

30099-30278, built 1978-1979. These had Sambre et Meuse bogies, and the wagon frame design was modified above the bogies to allow clearance for the larger bogie frame.

The IRM models have the first type of frame and the second type of bogie:

Both batches of wagons were built with round buffers, and 14 spigot brackets each side.

Later, many wagons were modified with rectangular buffers (circa 1990s) and additional spigots for keg cages (circa 2000s). The IRM wagons include these later modifications.

 

Edited January 12 by Mol_PMB
inserted model photo

[flange lubricator]

Photo below a 30001 series 42' container flat as built 1971

[Mol_PMB]

There are some interesting photos of newly-built wagons at Inchicore in the IRRS Flickr archive too.

Here's brand new 30030:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511746390

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53527754500

 

The same underframe type was used for the fertiliser wagons, of course. The protoype (and perhaps some of the early production wagons, given that one of these photos is captioned 35017) also had the Ride Control bogies, and mesh doors:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53526421817

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53570775949

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511313966

The June 1973 IRRS Journal says:

...The other 22ft 6in flat is a prototype fertiliser wagon, and a 42ft 9in bogie flat No. 30085 has been similarly modified. A prototype 60ft Sundries Van has also been completed. These three vehicles are now on trial, and all three bear the designation "EX" but the 22ft 6in fertiliser wagon and the Sundries Van bear no other numbers. The second series of 50 of the 42ft 9in bogie flat wagons is now in progress, and it is understood that these will be built specially for fertiliser traffic...

 

This film shows an early fertiliser wagon (maybe the prototype) with mesh doors and ride control bogies being unloaded, and then standard ones with ply doors and Sambre et Meuse bogies being built. The other two prototypes mentioned also make an appearance:

 

[Mol_PMB]

This film is also a good watch and shows some of the prototype wagons as well as various developments of fertiliser wagon. There's another variant of door seen at 14:41.

And for those who like early containers, fast-forward to 29:00 and we see some of the early 42'9" flats in use amongst a lot of 4-wheelers. Other treats are the Burmah tankers, and an E class in action around Cork.

 

[Ironroad]

On 12/1/2025 at 2:08 PM, Mol_PMB said:

Sorry! It's complicated.

IRM didn't actually model the ones with steel floors; I was looking for information to do a conversion to represent that type.

But for the ones without steel floors, there were two main groups:

30001-30090, built 1971-1972. These had Ride Control bogies.

30099-30278, built 1978-1979. These had Sambre et Meuse bogies, and the wagon frame design was modified above the bogies to allow clearance for the larger bogie frame.

The IRM models have the first type of frame and the second type of bogie:

Both batches of wagons were built with round buffers, and 14 spigot brackets each side.

Later, many wagons were modified with rectangular buffers (circa 1990s) and additional spigots for keg cages (circa 2000s). The IRM wagons include these later modifications.

 

Many thanks, that is very informative and prompted me to check back on the thread covering the announcement of IRM's Project 42. It seems that producing these flats with Ride Control Bogies was on the agenda and hopefully IRM can still be persuaded to produce these as an an accessory for the many of us that might be inclined to replace the  Sambre et Meuse bogies.  This is the post that caught my attention.  https://irishrailwaymodeller.com/topic/7600-project-42-update/page/2/#comment-109425

[Mol_PMB]

That's interesting. Equally I have seen IRM posts in subsequent years that have declared Project 42 'complete'...

I've ordered some Cambrian bogies and I'm going to have a go at grafting in some IRM wheelsets complete with rotating axle ends. 

[Ironroad]

58 minutes ago, Mol_PMB said:

That's interesting. Equally I have seen IRM posts in subsequent years that have declared Project 42 'complete'...

I've ordered some Cambrian bogies and I'm going to have a go at grafting in some IRM wheelsets complete with rotating axle ends. 

Yes, I've also seen that, but a rerun with improvements in the future is quite probable  and producing and offering Ride Control Bogies as an accessory (in the interim) as preparation for that rerun would make some sense.

[Mol_PMB]

This 1994 photo from Colm O'Callaghan on Flickr appears to show one of the bogie flats with steel floors as the second vehicle in a Bell Liner. If so, it had lost its chain pockets by this time.

But this 2012 photo from Karl Rose on Flickr complicates the situation. Here is 30081 (not one of those originally fitted with floors) with a floor added. Presumably this was done after it was transferred to the Engineers' fleet. The floor overhangs the solebars, which is a distinguishing feature compared to the original 30091-30098 batch which were built new with floors: