GSWR 50' open gangwayed coaches

[Colonel]

I was thinking more along the Kleenex line. Normally two ply, but a single layer could work for thickness. Colour another matter though.

[Mol_PMB]

Since starting this thread I have acquired more information, including the GSR 1937 carriage register and GSR / early CIE carriage diagrams. The diagrams include:

• An unnumbered and undated GSR diagram showing the original condition with 72 third class seats. Numbers listed are 833, 834, 835, 836, 837, 839, 840, 841, 842, 843, 844, but apart from 834 and 839 they are all marked with an X, presumably indicating that they no longer conform to this diagram. The diagram also has a crude pencil annotation with two end bays partitioned off and the remaining seating capacity shown as 56, and this is labelled with an almost illegible number which might be 841.
• A GSR diagram numbered 14, amended to show the lavatory conversion with 64 third class seats and 2 lavatories, which has a CIE CME drawing office stamp dated 3 Jan 1958. The same full list of numbers is shown, but some are struck through and the remaining ones are: 835, 836, 837, 840, 842. There is a note that 841 and 843 were converted to tea cars, and that 837 has 76 third class seats.
• A GSR diagram numbered 70 showing the unique 838 as rebuilt in 1924 with elliptical roof. The drawing has a CIE CME drawing office stamp dated 5 Oct 1950. It is shown as a tea car with 58 seats and the arrangement of the pantry is shown in detail, as well as the changes to the window arrangement on the pantry side.
• A  diagram (not marked GSR) numbered 71 showing 841 and 843. The drawing has a CIE CME drawing office stamp dated 4 Oct 1950. They are shown as tea cars with 58 seats and the arrangement of the pantry is shown in detail; it is similar but not identical to 838. The window arrangement on the non-pantry side so it is not clear how the windows behind the pantry were altered.
• A crude pencil sketch titled 'Buffet 841' which shows 64 seats and one seating bay at the end partitioned off. 

 

I also some intriging gen on the last train to West Cork on 31 March 1961. The train formation was given in the 'bus substitution railtour' brochure from the West Cork Wanderer trip last month. It was: 2641 - 841 - 1410 - 2660. There are quite a few photos of the last train, but most show it from one end or the other, focusing on the railcars. It is apparent from photos that the intermediates are a Park Royal (1410, one of those recorded as being through-wired for the railcars), and an old arc-roofed bogie coach. The best photo I've found of that vehicle so far is here:

 

It's not very clear, but from what we can see it could well be 841. This is interesting because 841 is not one of the vehicles recorded as being through-wired for the railcars - indeed of this batch of coaches only 838 (with its elliptical roof) is listed as through-wired. As a tea car, 841 would be a good candidate for through-wiring and with this evidence I think it must have been wired. 

 

I have therefore updated the listing of these carriages as follows:

834: Remained basically unchanged throughout its life. Listed with the nominal 72 seats in 1937, 1946 and 1953 registers. Withdrawn 1959.

835: Listed with the nominal 72 seats in 1937, 1946 and 1953 registers, 2 lavatories fitted around 1958? Demoted to secondary stock by 1961 when it is shown with 64 seats and 2 lavatories, fitted for Radio Train. Withdrawn 1964 and converted to departmental stock 540A. 

836: Listed with the nominal 72 seats in 1937, 1946 and 1953 registers, 2 lavatories fitted around 1958?, demoted to secondary stock by 1961 when it is shown with 64 seats and 2 lavatories, fitted for Radio Train. Withdrawn 1963 and converted to departmental stock 463A. Sold to DCDR in the 1980s - restored and still in use.

837: Listed with the nominal 72 seats in 1937, 1946 and 1953 registers. Possibly modified with lavatory and 76 seats in the 1950s? Withdrawn 1960 and converted to camping coach no.8. Later transferred to departmental stock 530A. Survived at Waterford until 2002, then sold to RPSI and now at Whitehead under restoration.

838: Major rebuild in 1924 when it gained a high elliptical roof and electric lighting. Converted to 3rd class Tea Car at unknown date, listed with 58 seats in the 1937, 1946 and 1953 registers. Rebuilt again in 1957, still as Tea Car but with only 24 seats. Through-wired for operation with AEC railcars. Withdrawn 1965 and converted to departmental stock 522A. 

839: Remained basically unchanged throughout its life. Listed with the nominal 72 seats in 1937, 1946 and 1953 registers. Withdrawn 1960.

840: Listed with the nominal 72 seats in 1937, 1946 and 1953 registers, 2 lavatories fitted around 1958?, demoted to secondary stock by 1961 when it is shown with 64 seats and 2 lavatories, fitted for Radio Train. Withdrawn 1964.

841: Converted to 3rd class Tea Car at unknown date after 1924, listed with 58 seats in the 1937, 1946 and 1953 registers. Through-wired for operation with AEC railcars. The 1961 register lists it as a primary 56-seat 2nd, no catering facilities. Possibly the former pantry area was removed but no seats reinstated. Withdrawn 1963.

842: Listed with the nominal 72 seats in 1937, 1946 and 1953 registers, 2 lavatories fitted around 1958?, demoted to secondary stock by 1961 when it is shown with 64 seats and 2 lavatories, fitted for Radio Train. Withdrawn 1964.

843: Converted to 3rd class Tea Car at unknown date after 1924, listed with 58 seats in the 1937, 1946 and 1953 registers. The 1961 register lists it as a primary 56-seat 2nd, no catering facilities. Withdrawn 1964.

 

Although I now have more information on the Tea Car interior layout, good photographs of these are very hard to find and I still don't have enough enough information to know what the pantry side window arrangement was like.

[Mol_PMB]

I think I've now completed the artwork for the underframe and bogies, which also incorporates some parts for the seating and some more optional bits for the tea car variant.

I've also made a couple of tweaks to the roof on the body etch to faciliate the tea car variant:

I think these are now ready to be sent for etching. However, I'll give it a day or two and do a final check as I often find that's wise.

[Horsetan]

1 hour ago, Mol_PMB said:

I think I've now completed the artwork for the underframe and bogies, which also incorporates some parts for the seating and some more optional bits for the tea car variant.

I've also made a couple of tweaks to the roof on the body etch to faciliate the tea car variant:

I think these are now ready to be sent for etching. However, I'll give it a day or two and do a final check as I often find that's wise.

If that can build either of the preserved pair of coaches, count me in for an etch set!

[Mol_PMB]

1 minute ago, Horsetan said:

If that can build either of the preserved pair of coaches, count me in for an etch set!

That is the intention. It should be buildable as the basic third, the lavatory third or the tea car. I thought it would be up your street!

[Horsetan]

1 minute ago, Mol_PMB said:

That is the intention. It should be buildable as the basic third, the lavatory third or the tea car. I thought it would be up your street!

Anything that can recreate the preserved stock gets a "yes" from me

[Mol_PMB]

It has turned out to be a good choice of prototype - with three main variants in normal service all across the GSR/CIE, a couple of different departmental examples and two vehicles preserved. At least one was through-wired as a railcar intermediate and another was converted to a camping coach - which was placed on the W&T so even a modeller of that isolated system could justify one! 

[Horsetan]

38 minutes ago, Mol_PMB said:

It has turned out to be a good choice of prototype - with three main variants in normal service all across the GSR/CIE, a couple of different departmental examples and two vehicles preserved. At least one was through-wired as a railcar intermediate and another was converted to a camping coach - which was placed on the W&T so even a modeller of that isolated system could justify one! 

I'm just having a look at the bare bogie frames and trying to work out where to modify them for CSB springs....

[Mol_PMB]

5 minutes ago, Horsetan said:

I'm just having a look at the bare bogie frames and trying to work out where to modify them for CSB springs....

They are the Brassmasters type of bogie - with springy wires across the headstocks.

https://www.brassmasters.co.uk/bogie_CUs.htm

 

[Mol_PMB]

On @Westcorkrailway's recommendation I have increased my collection of obsolete media formats by purchasing some DVDs from Clonakilty!

Why, well there are some shots of 841, as a tea car, in the railcar set on the last day of services on the West Cork lines. There's lots of other nice footage too including colour film of 559, the J26 I'm building, and a C class on the rails just 3 miles from my house in Manchester!

But back to the GSWR coach theme, as ever the old film wasn't such good quality as one might hope, but there is something to be seen in the footage that adds to the image of the train at Crossbarry that I posted above.

As a reminder, the link below is the only good photo I have found showing one of these tea cars (in this case 843), but the diagram of 841 and 843 (available from the IRRS) definitely helps too.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53509172565

So what do the rather rubbish screen captures from the DVD tell us? Well it looks like the normal roof vents are only over one of the two saloons in the coach, but the roof furniture in the middle of the roof is busy all along, and there seems to be a central water tank at the other end of the roof. Some of those features match what we can see on the photo of 843 (style and location of roof tank) and 843 also had extra 'Flettner' rotating vents on the centreline of the roof which are marked on the diagram and probably present on 841 too (especially with the normal vents being removed). The photo of 843 also shows extra vents on the sides above the windows at the pantty end, but none of the photos of 841 are clear enough to show whether these were fitted.

          

All I've done to the etch to enable this is to make adjustments to the holes in the roof, with more of them half-etched than holes right through. I hope that by the time I have got the etches made, I might have found some better photos of 841!

I'm wondering whether to wait until after my trip to the IRRS archives at the end of the month, before getting the etches made. It would be frustrating to find new information just too late to change the artwork.

[Horsetan]

6 hours ago, Mol_PMB said:

... at the pantty end...

Distracted by thoughts of the Missus? Or possibly turning into Pat Mustard? 

[Mol_PMB]

Sorry, that should have been Pantry. 
I’m not sure they had the facilities to be considered a Kitchen.