Gswr 1097

[Jawfin]

Hello all - I apologise in advance about my quires on here, I'll try to ensure that this'll be the last for a while!

 

A querey that's been bothering me for a while is the build date of GSWR 1097, the composite on the running set at Downpatrick. Some sources say 1923, others say 1925 - which one is it? And if it were the latter, then would it not be a GSR vehicle to a GSWR design? If so, would it have still carried GSWR lettering?

I hope this doesn't ruin the chances of having a nice, protoypical, GSWR-liveried set at DP!

Edited February 4, 2015 by Jawfin

[jhb171achill]

Jawfin, queries are one of the very reasons to be on here, so ask away at any time - there is someone on here who will be sold to answer any question you have.

 

1097 was started in 1924, under the GSWR, but entered traffic just into the new year in 1925. It would have been painted in the GSWR "dark crimson lake" carried by it and 836. It would have had GSWR lining, as per 836, but probably a GSR crest if it had then been ready.

 

At first repaint, a comparatively new mainline coach like this would have received the short-lived chocolate brown and cream, maroon later.

Edited February 4, 2015 by jhb171achill

[minister_for_hardship]

The GSR did continue building GSWR pattern stock for a bit, but they would have carried GSR insignia and coats of arms of course.

 

Maybe you'd want to go to an original source in the IRRS library for a definitive answer?

[jhb171achill]

Correct, minister. I have a GSWR carriage diagram book which tells the same story. It was common practice for "taken-over" works to continue with pre-amalgamation patterns. One only has to look across the pond at the number of locomotives turned out under British Rail, whose designs were often from SR, GWR, LMS and LNER.

Edited February 4, 2015 by jhb171achill

[BSGSV]

there is someone on here who will be sold to answer any question you have.

Er, what does that mean?

 

As to 1097. Its number does not suggest a 1920's build date, given the new numbering system introduced in 1915, after 1131 had been built. One possibility is that it was rebuilt in the 1920's. A carriage list in the IRRS archives could be taken as supporting that to some degree, or not, depending on your viewpoint. If it was rebuilt, question is why. Haven't seen anything on that.

It was also very seriously "got at" in 1959 to convert it for Knock pilgrimage traffic, (later numbered AM12). A small kitchen was fitted in one of the compartments, and an open area fitted with railcar seats (presumably to accommodate stretchers). It also acquired the Commonwealth bogies at that time. Had a spell as 605A in Departmental use. RPSI also refurbed it. Quite a career!

[jhb171achill]

A varied career indeed, BSGSV.... I must try to dig out the actual stuff about 1097 I have somewhere - but 1924/5 it was. Many carriages of GSWR origin, including 1287 at DCDR (even more than 1097), and GSR and CIE coaches - also had varied careers. DCDR's 3223 has neither the identity or number it initially had by any stretch of the imagination. The open area was indeed to accommodate stretchers in Claremorris pilgrimage trains.

 

"......there is someone on here who will be sold to answer any question you have......" Predictive text-speak for "ABLE to answer"!!!! (No, I don't know why either!!). I repeat: I issue a fatwa, nay ten fatwas, each more violent than the last, against whatever moron invented predictive text.... I'll go back and edit my initial post.

[Jawfin]

Thanks very much, all, very useful information

Weren't coaches of similar sizes as 1097 (at the time), such as 1142, built for the Rosslaire express? If so, would 1097 have carried what would be, "GSR," brown and cream? If so, would this have been similar to the livery 836 used to have - like vermillion and yellow lining? I have a feeling that the brown in GSR brown and cream was a good bit lighter, but would that have been a much later (1930s) feature?

Edited February 4, 2015 by Jawfin

[jhb171achill]

Broadly speaking, GSWR carriages built before about 1910 had the roof profile as seen on 836, or for those who have been inside the RPSI's Mullingar Shed, 813. Later, the higher distinctive design as seen on 1287, 1097 and 1142. These were not built for the Rosslare Express - they were later. The special set (five carriages) for the Rosslare Express were specially constructed at Inchicore for that purpose in 1906. The RPSI's 861, currently under long term restoration, is the sole survivor, one of very very few twelve-wheeled carriages ever to run in Ireland.

 

The livery 836 used to have was not correct, in that it wouldn't have had cream upper panels, and the lining had the wrong colours and style.

 

The procedure regarding liveries for these coaches was this: the GSWR's standard livery was as shown on 836 now - this is authentic - sadly, one of the few properly authentic liveries in preservation. After the Rosslare Express was introduced, white upper panels began to appear on main line stock (which would not include carriages like 836). However, the popularity of this was such that it began to spread to other main line stock also, and by the time the GSWR was about to become part of the GSR, it was widespread. For obvious reasons, few if any six-wheelers received the cream upper panels.

 

It is likely that 1142 and 1097 had cream upper panels originally, but not certain; they could well have been placed in traffic in plain "lake".

 

When the GSWR took over everything, for a short while Broadstone (deep maroon by then - not dissimilar) and Grand Canal Street (mid-maroon) just used up what paint they had, but with the new GSR numerals, crest and lining style borrowed straight from Inchicore, but this soon gave way to a deep maroon for all, i.e., as far as GSWR stock was concerned, a bit lighter and more reddish. I suspect it was similar to what the MGWR had been using since they abandoned brown in 1918.

 

Just as the GSWR had its own "main line" style, soon the GSR followed suit, and very soon a GWR-style chocolate and cream scheme was introduced for main line stock only - other stock remained the deep maroon. GSR crests, large class numerals on doors, and gold shaded coach numbers were standard on both liveries. The only difference was that the GSR used black lining on the choc / cream livery instead of gold on the rest.

 

Once the "steels" (the wooden framed but steel-clad "Bredins") came out, the initial batch in 1933, then more in 1935 and 1937, the company introduced a new livery for carriages which was as good as identical to the English LMS, and by extension, the NCC. This mid-maroon, which modellers may purchase in any shop in England that advertises authentic "LMS red", was a good bit lighter than the old shade. By degrees, everything started being painted in this colour, six-wheelers and all; no cream or cream panels on any of it. Lining was identical to LMS style.

 

Now we're into 1945 and the dark Brunswick green of CIE appears, with light green lines above and below windows; the upper one being thicker than the lower one. these, as well as numerals and "snails" were themselves lined in gold.

 

Hope that helps.

[Jawfin]

Thanks very much JB, again, very useful

 

Was it built like it is now with the corridor leading to a saloon, or was it rebuilt like that when used as an ambulance coach? Speaking of which, when did it become an ambulance coach?

[jhb171achill]

It became an ambulance vehicle, from memory, early sixties but I'd have to check for sure. It was originally a tricompo. If you look at the compartment side window profile, and the first two compartments you'll see they have wider seats and more leg room. They were firsts. Next compartments were second class, and there was another 2nd class compartment where the (RPSI installed) disabled loo now is. The open bit was always thus, with fixed seats, third class. The conversion for Knock Specials was achieved by removing these seats and installing double doors each side instead of single doors.

[Mayner]

GSWR Carriage Diagrams (H Richards & B Pender) 1975 includes a diagram of similar 1924 built 50' tri-compsite 1096. 1097 is not listed possibly because it entered services post amalgamation.

 

Its possible that the coaches were converted from 50' non-corridor Brake3rd built in 1910.

 

50' Brake 3rd 1090-1095 Built 1910 listed in service in 1924 is dawn with the earlier style of panelling, arc roof and gas lighting.

 

52' Tri-composites 1098-1099 Built 1911 Similar styling and roof profile with exposed roof cisterns. Non-gangwayed with separate toilets to make sure the 3 classes of passenger did not meet

 

I always fancied a model of 861, I bought some sets of Comet LMS Period 1 coach sides about 20 years ago hoping to do a cut and shuffle but could not get the window spacings to work out. I guess I might have to add a couple of stray NCC coaches that took a wrong turning at Antrim or Cookstown and got completely lost and ended up on the Midland in Cavan or even Navan Junction.

[BSGSV]

1097 is 52' over headstocks, not 50', so I'd be looking at 1098/1099 more. The diagram of 1096 is very recognisably 1097 today, allowing for modifications since build.

1097 was converted for Knock use in 1959. It didn't receive an "AM" number until the 1960's, when special series were introduced for these and Radio Studio coaches.

The GSR 1928 list of carriages (held at IRRS archives) shows 1096 and 1097 as build date "1924R". Given 1097 is a 52' vehicle, the last others of which were built in 1911/1912, and given its number in the old numbering scheme, the "R" on the build date indicates to me that 1097 was not entirely new in 1924. Given it was just post civil war, 1096 and 1097 could have been victims of actions. Could have been just a fire (oil gas can be nasty). Could be just the underframes that remained and a new top fitted. Could be a rebuild of bodywork. Alas, no "Irish Railfans News" or IRRS Journal from those days to shed light!

Edited February 5, 2015 by BSGSV

[jhb171achill]

Very interesting, bsgsv. I had often wondered about not only that, but a few other aberrations in the GSW numerical list. The MGWR seemed a little more clear on what was rebuilt or not, but there has been a tradition at Inchicore from GSWR times right through to the present day of vehicles appearing in various incarnations, with up to three or four running numbers, within their lifetime. The Enterprise genny vans are the latest!

[Jawfin]

Thank you very much all, invaluable information :D