MGWR formations and livery's

[Midland Man]

Hey all  

Due to covid 19 I have been able to spend time researching a long term goal of building Moate railway station in 1920 in O gauge, so does any one know any formations of Midland stock like the Breathland track layer, the limited mail and cattle traffic.Also did J26s use the line between Athlone to Mullingar as I have herd that they were used there in GSR days . The next thing is Midland livery's. I am grateful to JHB171achill for giving information on station building livery's and I am very grateful. If anyone could help I would also be gratefull. Hope you all like. 

[jhb171achill]

The entire Bretland yoke and all related gubbins were plain grey, as were all goods and cattle vehicles. There is some evidence that at some stage anyway, brake vans were green, of what shade I don't know, but probably a mid-leaf-green. Photos do not show a particulary light or dark colour.

PW stock was grey, of course - the all-yellow for maintenance gear didn't really appear until the late 1980s, apart from things like tamping and lining machines which were yellow from the 1960s.

jhb171Senior managed to get hold of the first ever tamping and lining machine that the GNR had, and he trialled it somewhere between Ballybay and Inniskeen on the Irish North, but then it had to go back to the Eastern DistricT It was grey too...

But back to the MGWR. The"E" class, later J26, were built for the following lines: Kingscourt, Athboy, Killeshandra-Crossdoney, Manulla - Killala, Achill and Clifden. They would not really have hauled trains through Moate, although they must have passed through en route to the west on their way to and from Broadstone for maintenance. I think they might have been used on the Cavan branch for a time, but I would have to check that. They were always branch line engines.

After the amalgamation, of course, several went south. Three were on the Waterford & Tramore, one of these (560) later going to cork and then Tralee. It lasted there, working the Fenit branch, until the end of steam.

What would have gone through Moate would have been the big 4.4.0s and various types of 0.6.0s, most notably the cattle engines and J18s. The "G2" 2.4.0s would have been regulars too, and just after the GSR took over, of course the great "Woolwich" 2.6.0s. You can get the Bachmann ones. If you're a dab hand with brass, a G2 kit is available.

Liveries as follows.

Up to 1903: all locomotives, goods included - a shade of green barely darker than current Isle of Man, or not unlike the LNER in England. Frames brown, lined red, green parts of loco lined in black and white. On tenders, "M  G  \\  W  R"  (\\ denoting the MGWR crest). Lettering shaded gold. 

Carriages a mid brown, gold lining, gold letters, numerals & crest. The brown, of which a sample may be seen on one of the stabled unrestored coaches at Downpatrick, was not unlike the brown used on CIE wagons from 1970, but not as reddish as modern wagon brown. Wagons a very dark grey, but appear to have been painted in a lighter shade gradually after (at a wild guess) about 1910. Goods brake vans mid=green, unlined. Lettering cream on all wagons and vans.

1903 - 1918: Same for most - but - they started painting SOME 4.4.0s and SOME carriages in a new blue livery in 1903. It did not wear well, and by 1908 or so they had reverted to the previous liveries described above. This new livery had its origin in the "Tourist Express" destined for Galway, for Clifden; locomotives were "royal blue". This appears to have a been a shade slightly darker than the blue on a British flag; if you visit the Model Railway Museum in Malahide you'll see it on one of the models of a 4.4.0. I believe that's actual paint. Lining was red and gold, though I once read it was black and white; I think the red and gold is correct. Carriages were the same blue on the ends and lower sides, with upper panels white or off-white; a most impractical colour for anything to be hauled by a steam engine.

It seems that in both brown and blue /white liveries, carriage roofs were painted in white lead - again, nonsensically impractical; result - roofs were in fact a grey colour due to coal smoke VERY soon. Lining on the carriages was again gold.

After 1908/10, lining on the coaches, now reverting to brown if they had ever strayed from it, becomes light yellow instead of gold; details otherwise the same.

Locomotives were green still, with blue ones reverting to green, but perhaps about 1915 (date unknown) they start painting them black, lined in red. After 1918 this became the standard livery for all non-passenger engines. However it is clear that a great many still retained the lined green well after the GSR takeover, as one "J18", "Luna", was recorded by Clements still in green into the early 1930s; in fact, she was the last Midland engine not to be sheep-dipped in grey paint.

After 1918, a new standard carriage livery was introduced of a very dark maroon, possibly not unlike the almost black dark brownish-maroon GSWR carriage livery. I would model this by looking at LMS maroon and going several shades between that and dark brown. Bob Clements described it to me, but I never saw a sample.

Hope that helps! I mentioned stations the other day - wooden paintwork red and a stoney-cream-beige colour.

[David Holman]

Superb information here JB, even the MGWR history isn't clear about liveries. Especially like the comparisons with Isle of Man and LNER - now stored away for when I get round to building Wolf Dog. Hoping to make a start once Belmullet is properly up and running, so it can head a MGW mails. Will only have room for three six wheelers, but should make a nice train.

[jhb171achill]

Can’t wait to see that, David!

[jhb171achill]

The late Bob Clements told me that he would give me a “stick” with MGWR paint on it.

He was in Broadstone one time and while they were only painting engines black at the very end, he found a tin of loco green. He went off and found what he described as a “bit of a stick”, and came back and gave the paint a good stirring, wrapped the stick in newspaper and took it home.

I promised to call with him to collect it. Several weeks passed and I had this in the back of my mind. 

Then one morning a friend rang me to say that he had passed away.

I learned a sharp lesson that day. When someone of that stature offers information to you, you stop EVERYTHING and go. Now. RIGHT now. 

I’d love to have that stick! But I never saw it, after all.

Edited March 28, 2020 by jhb171achill

[Midland Man]

7 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

The late Bob Clements told me that he would give me a “stick” with MGWR paint on it.

He was in Broadstone one time and while they were only painting engines black at the very end, he found a tin of loco green. He went off and found what he described as a “bit of a stick”, and came back and gave the paint a good stirring, wrapped the stick in newspaper and took it home.

I promised to call with him to collect it. Several weeks passed and I had this in the back of my mind. 

Then one morning a friend rang me to say that he had passed away.

I learned a sharp lesson that day. When someone of that stature offers information to you, you stop EVERYTHING and go. Now. RIGHT now. 

I’d love to have that stick! But I never saw it, after all.

Real pity 

I have a pic of j18 Luna but I cannot seem to find it.It show the engine in ots original livery and flyaway cab must make one of them as well as a B and H class.

[jhb171achill]

Yes, she was the last! I think she got her first coat of grey paint in the mid-1930s. I have the date somewhere - Bob Clements gave it to me years ago.

[Midland Man]

I am going to write a letter to tryconnel models and get a g2 or a 2-2-2 what were the 2-2-2 liverys and whwre did they work.

[jhb171achill]

The 2.2.2s were VERY early on. They were green. carriages in those days were little 4-wheelers with small windows. You're looking at when the line from Dublin to Athlone first opened, and on into the 1850s. 

[Galteemore]

It’s a nice little kit - are more pics on my thread of my build.  As JHB says, they were a very early MGWR type and all the 2-2-2Ts had finally gone by 1905 - but had long been sidelined to minor work and only lasted as stationary boilers by the end. I cheated and pretended that mine lasted until the 50s and got a smart coat of black! Also included a pic of a sample one on Roger’s stand - in proper green! And a pic of what they looked like when delivered - this is one left in Brazil....
 

 

Edited March 28, 2020 by Galteemore

[Midland Man]

I will probally get the 2-2-2 as a g2 would need mods where do you get track for o gauge 

[jhb171achill]

2 minutes ago, Midland Man said:

I will probally get the 2-2-2 as a g2 would need mods where do you get track for o gauge 

Marks Models, Dublin.

[Midland Man]

Like the 36.75mm gauge (hope it is the right gauge)

[Galteemore]

Not sure what you mean, MM- is that what you want to try building? 32mm is standard O gauge and that you can buy off the shelf. It represents standard UK gauge of 4’8.5” and many Irish modellers use it for convenience. Now you can go the whole hog and build your stuff to 36.75mm gauge - which is of course scale 5’3”. Perfectly doable but you will have to make your own track. Points can be supplied by Marcway in Sheffield. Saying that, the 2-2-2T is not straightforward to build to 36.75 gauge as it uses a rather odd single driving wheel. Slaters (the O gauge wheel people) don’t make that special tapered single driving axle in 36.75 gauge (which they can supply  for ordinary standard  driving axles). You’d have to turn up a new axle yourself or get an engineer to (that’s what I did). I’d pick one of Roger’s small tank locos as a first build instead, if I was starting again in 36.75 - the axles are much easier to get hold of! 

Edited March 28, 2020 by Galteemore

[Midland Man]

yeah I ment 5ft 3in guge in O 

what MGWR wagons are there and prices?

[Galteemore]

He doesn’t make many MGWR wagons - just a card kit of a van or two. They are about £3 but that just gives you a basic body - no wheels etc. My first two attempts at building wagons were MGWR - scratchbuilt from drawings. If I can do it anyone can! 
 

 

Edited March 28, 2020 by Galteemore

[Midland Man]

Class!

Love the midland break van and open wagon.I will have to make a rake of those wagons for Moate (if it ever happens) 

[Galteemore]

Thanks - as I say these are early efforts and I can spot the flaws! The Open wagon is an easy start - drawings are in Ernie Shepherd’s MGWR book.

[Midland Man]

Ye Ernie Shepards book has loco drawings of a L class whitch I may build.Is there drawings for a C or A class.

[Galteemore]

Worth talking to the Historical Model Railway Society. They have a very helpful Irish adviser, Dr Alan O’Rourke.https://hmrs.org.uk/msc

[jhb171achill]

Alan is a mine of information for locomotive drawings.

[Tobin]

On 27/3/2020 at 11:07 PM, jhb171achill said:

Liveries as follows.

Up to 1903: all locomotives, goods included - a shade of green barely darker than current Isle of Man, or not unlike the LNER in England. Frames brown, lined red, green parts of loco lined in black and white. On tenders, "M  G  \\  W  R"  (\\ denoting the MGWR crest). Lettering shaded gold. 

1903 - 1918: Same for most - but - they started painting SOME 4.4.0s and SOME carriages in a new blue livery in 1903. It did not wear well, and by 1908 or so they had reverted to the previous liveries described above. This new livery had its origin in the "Tourist Express" destined for Galway, for Clifden; locomotives were "royal blue". This appears to have a been a shade slightly darker than the blue on a British flag; if you visit the Model Railway Museum in Malahide you'll see it on one of the models of a 4.4.0. I believe that's actual paint. Lining was red and gold, though I once read it was black and white; I think the red and gold is correct. Carriages were the same blue on the ends and lower sides, with upper panels white or off-white; a most impractical colour for anything to be hauled by a steam engine.

Locomotives were green still, with blue ones reverting to green, but perhaps about 1915 (date unknown) they start painting them black, lined in red. After 1918 this became the standard livery for all non-passenger engines. However it is clear that a great many still retained the lined green well after the GSR takeover, as one "J18", "Luna", was recorded by Clements still in green into the early 1930s; in fact, she was the last Midland engine not to be sheep-dipped in grey paint.

I have some thoughts on the MGWR locomotive liveries based on numerous sources but they may not be correct. I would like to hear what you think.

The green livery is often described as Emerald Green with black and white lining by authors Ernie Shepherd, H.C.Casserly and Jeremy Clements/Michael McMahon, where Clements/McMahon describes it as a green similar to the Great Central Railway of England. 

The Royal Blue livery is mentioned by all three authors with different opinions of the lining being either red+yellow, black+white or black+yellow. Ernie Shepherd mentions his source was also Bob Clements, meaning red+yellow lining being most likely. Shepherd only talks about one class getting the Blue Livery, the 4-4-0 'A' Class, as evidently seen elsewhere in photos and art of 'Celtic'. Shepard also mentions the blue livery in a photo of a train at Clifden, but the engine is an older 2-4-0 'K' Class and I think he was referring to the train of coaches(which are obviously in the blue+white livery) whereas the locomotive may have been in standard green livery. Shepherd also mentions that goods engines at the time were in an unlined blue livery, no exact class mentioned but the 'B' Class goods engines was delivered at the same time the 'A' Class was delivered. So if this is true about this unlined blue for goods, its most likely the 'B' Class. 

Shepherd and Clements/McMahon then go on to say that in 1905/1906, the Royal Blue livery was reverted to green, albeit a lighter shade of green, described as Grass Green. Again no exact classes are specified but assuming its the 'A' Class and possibly 'B' Class. Not a lot of proof to back this up but there are two pieces of evidence. The first is a photo in Ernie Shepherds book on the MGWR, the caption doesn't describe the livery but the engine is 'Titanic' of the 'A' Class in original condition and shade of livery is a lot lighter than the standard green. The livery is fresh, unlined with no MGWR markings on the tender and the smokebox is also freshly painted in black. I would suggest this could be some sort of underlay coat before the final coat of paint but MGWR normally use white before applying the final coat of paint. The second evidence is from a post card showing a MGWR train in a light green livery: 

Now theres an issue here since the original black and white photo used for the post card is of 'Celtic' pulling the Royal Train in the Royal Blue Livery, so the artist has coloured in the photo incorrectly. However, maybe the artist was trying to reflect the colours used at the time of the post card production which may have taken place after the Blue livery was disposed of. I mean the Limited Mail was repainted brown afterwards, so the shade of green may be correct. It might also be worth saying that the photo had 'Celtic' very dark, nearly black and yet the artist has put in the effort to lighten the engine instead of going with the dark to create the Emerald green.

Anyway, those are my thoughts. 

[jhb171achill]

57 minutes ago, Tobin said:

The green livery is often described as Emerald Green with black and white lining by authors Ernie Shepherd, H.C.Casserly and Jeremy Clements/Michael McMahon, where Clements/McMahon describes it as a green similar to the Great Central Railway of England. 

The Royal Blue livery is mentioned by all three authors with different opinions of the lining being either red+yellow, black+white or black+yellow. Ernie Shepherd mentions his source was also Bob Clements, meaning red+yellow lining being most likely. Shepherd only talks about one class getting the Blue Livery, the 4-4-0 'A' Class, as evidently seen elsewhere in photos and art of 'Celtic'. Shepard also mentions the blue livery in a photo of a train at Clifden, but the engine is an older 2-4-0 'K' Class and I think he was referring to the train of coaches(which are obviously in the blue+white livery) whereas the locomotive may have been in standard green livery. Shepherd also mentions that goods engines at the time were in an unlined blue livery, no exact class mentioned but the 'B' Class goods engines was delivered at the same time the 'A' Class was delivered. So if this is true about this unlined blue for goods, its most likely the 'B' Class. 

Shepherd and Clements/McMahon then go on to say that in 1905/1906, the Royal Blue livery was reverted to green, albeit a lighter shade of green, described as Grass Green. Again no exact classes are specified but assuming its the 'A' Class and possibly 'B' Class. Not a lot of proof to back this up but there are two pieces of evidence. The first is a photo in Ernie Shepherds book on the MGWR, the caption doesn't describe the livery but the engine is 'Titanic' of the 'A' Class in original condition and shade of livery is a lot lighter than the standard green. The livery is fresh, unlined with no MGWR markings on the tender and the smokebox is also freshly painted in black. I would suggest this could be some sort of underlay coat before the final coat of paint but MGWR normally use white before applying the final coat of paint. The second evidence is from a post card showing a MGWR train in a light green livery: 

Now theres an issue here since the original black and white photo used for the post card is of 'Celtic' pulling the Royal Train in the Royal Blue Livery, so the artist has coloured in the photo incorrectly. However, maybe the artist was trying to reflect the colours used at the time of the post card production which may have taken place after the Blue livery was disposed of. I mean the Limited Mail was repainted brown afterwards, so the shade of green may be correct. It might also be worth saying that the photo had 'Celtic' very dark, nearly black and yet the artist has put in the effort to lighten the engine instead of going with the dark to create the Emerald green.

Anyway, those are my thoughts. 

Hi Tobin

OK, a number of interesting questions there. For ease, I have edited out the points to be answered, as above, so in order:

1.  "Emerald Green" is indeed what Clements (Bob, not Jeremy) described it to me as, or grass green. The last time i spoke to bob, Midland loco liveries were one thing we did discuss at length. I asked him if it would have been a bit like the green on Isle of Man engines in the Ailsa era, late 1960s. he said it was distinctly darker than that, but not my much! Much discussion suggests that the green used by the British Great Central, or something very marginally darker, might be the best estimate. Bob told me he had a paint sample which he would give me, where he had been in Broadstone one day and found a tin of it, opened it, lifted a bit of stick, swirled it round in the paint, wrapped the stick in newspaper and brought it home. He told me I could have it - but two weeks later I got the unfortunate phone call that he had passed away, so I never got it.

2.  Regarding the blue locomotive livery, Bob Clements distinctly told ME that the lining was black and yellow! I think, but cannot be sure, that I heard GOLD and black somewhere else... Yet Michael and Jeremy quote Bob as having told them red and yellow. If someone of the stature of Bob had two separate memories - I can't be sure. It's hard to tell from black and white photos, though at least one I saw somewhere shows one very light colour which might be yellow or white, and one dark colour which could be red or black. Personally, I've tended to go with black and yellow, but no definitive proof appears to be to hand. As to what locos were repainted blue, it was indeed applied to the "A" class, but the "D-bogie" ("Achill Bogies"), or GSR D16 / 530 class saw a trace of it too - in 1900, No. 37 "Wolf Dog" was briefly painted thus as a "guinea pig". This engine was initially put to use on the Sligo line but proved hopelessly underpowered for it, and like its 5 sisters, ended up spending most of its time on the Achill branch. Despite it being noted early on that this livery did not wear well, and a fairly prompt repaint into green for "Wolf Dog", the Midland painted up a few main line engines. I cannot state that (other than "Wolf Dog") that nothing but the "A" class were blue, but it is known that they stopped painting locos blue after only a very short time, reverting to green. The 2.4.0s (G2) on the Clifden line and the 0.6.0s which followed (J18) certainly, as you infer, would not have qualified as priority, but if one "Achill Bogie" got the "blues", who can say? Bob C told me that at all times, green locos were in the vast, vast majority.

The blue shade may be seen on a scrap of paint on the end of one of Downpatrick's unrestored six-wheelers. It has been suggested that a more obvious idea is to examine the "Dargan Saloon" in the UFTM; however, this is a 1950s CIE repaint, and while probably close enough cannot be verified. To my eyes, the small original sample is, though, more than adequately similar to the Dargan Saloon, so if I was making a model in MGWR blue, I think it would be more than satisfactory to colour-match this vehicle.

Yes, I agree that Ernie's comments about blue at Clifden refers to the coaches. As far as goods engines in blue are concerned, I am aware that a very large amount of Ernie's research was from the MGWR's Traffic Minute books, which I extensively trawled in the past. He will have picked up, I guess, a reference to a goods loco being painted unlined blue. Clements' comments suggest it was the exception.

3.  Sorry, I know it's a bit of an essay by now; but bear with me! The pic of "Titanic" (a FINE beast!) is unfinished; I suggest that it's blue, but lining, lettering and crest have not  yet been applied. The postcard in a lime green colour, like almost all postcards, is not correct. I looked back at my notes of what bob Clements told me just now. he mentioned the green being put back "as before", but when I spoke with him he did not mention it being lighter. Having said that, it could be simply because i did not ask him! Several other sources suggest a slightly lighter shade, but not exactly a "light" green at all - maybe "grass" green instead of "emerald" green (Clements used both those terms). The green livery would also start disappearing in 1915, when just Inchicore was abandoning black lined in red for all-over grey, now Broadstone starts painting locos black; plain if goods, with red lining if mixed traffic / passenger! Bob Clements did say, though, that repaints into black did not take place at a fast rate, and at the time of the amalgamation many engines were still green - one as late as 1932 before the GSR sheep-dipped it grey.

4.  Regarding "Celtic" and the Royal train......yes, I would agree that the artist has used his famous "licence" with regard to the postcard; such things can never be taken as an accurate livery guide. The locomotive was almost certainly in the dark blue livery, and the carriages definitely were.

The "Royal" or "State" Saloon, later No. 346 with CIE, actually spent most of its life indoors. Long after what few carriages HAD been blue and white were repainted brown again, this vehicle retained the blue and white livery until it was eventually repainted in the Midland's post-1918 maroon livery shortly before the GSR took over.

If that postcard is taken from a photo, this will presumably show the coaches clearly in black and white. This will account for the fact that the postcard painter appears to have the brown upper panels looking a bit lighter then the lower ones; and he is presumably aware that at the time, MOST trains had green engines and brown carriages!

 

[Tobin]

On 14/3/2021 at 11:18 PM, jhb171achill said:

Hi Tobin

OK, a number of interesting questions there. For ease, I have edited out the points to be answered, as above, so in order:

1.  "Emerald Green" is indeed what Clements (Bob, not Jeremy) described it to me as, or grass green. The last time i spoke to bob, Midland loco liveries were one thing we did discuss at length. I asked him if it would have been a bit like the green on Isle of Man engines in the Ailsa era, late 1960s. he said it was distinctly darker than that, but not my much! Much discussion suggests that the green used by the British Great Central, or something very marginally darker, might be the best estimate. Bob told me he had a paint sample which he would give me, where he had been in Broadstone one day and found a tin of it, opened it, lifted a bit of stick, swirled it round in the paint, wrapped the stick in newspaper and brought it home. He told me I could have it - but two weeks later I got the unfortunate phone call that he had passed away, so I never got it.

2.  Regarding the blue locomotive livery, Bob Clements distinctly told ME that the lining was black and yellow! I think, but cannot be sure, that I heard GOLD and black somewhere else... Yet Michael and Jeremy quote Bob as having told them red and yellow. If someone of the stature of Bob had two separate memories - I can't be sure. It's hard to tell from black and white photos, though at least one I saw somewhere shows one very light colour which might be yellow or white, and one dark colour which could be red or black. Personally, I've tended to go with black and yellow, but no definitive proof appears to be to hand. As to what locos were repainted blue, it was indeed applied to the "A" class, but the "D-bogie" ("Achill Bogies"), or GSR D16 / 530 class saw a trace of it too - in 1900, No. 37 "Wolf Dog" was briefly painted thus as a "guinea pig". This engine was initially put to use on the Sligo line but proved hopelessly underpowered for it, and like its 5 sisters, ended up spending most of its time on the Achill branch. Despite it being noted early on that this livery did not wear well, and a fairly prompt repaint into green for "Wolf Dog", the Midland painted up a few main line engines. I cannot state that (other than "Wolf Dog") that nothing but the "A" class were blue, but it is known that they stopped painting locos blue after only a very short time, reverting to green. The 2.4.0s (G2) on the Clifden line and the 0.6.0s which followed (J18) certainly, as you infer, would not have qualified as priority, but if one "Achill Bogie" got the "blues", who can say? Bob C told me that at all times, green locos were in the vast, vast majority.

The blue shade may be seen on a scrap of paint on the end of one of Downpatrick's unrestored six-wheelers. It has been suggested that a more obvious idea is to examine the "Dargan Saloon" in the UFTM; however, this is a 1950s CIE repaint, and while probably close enough cannot be verified. To my eyes, the small original sample is, though, more than adequately similar to the Dargan Saloon, so if I was making a model in MGWR blue, I think it would be more than satisfactory to colour-match this vehicle.

Yes, I agree that Ernie's comments about blue at Clifden refers to the coaches. As far as goods engines in blue are concerned, I am aware that a very large amount of Ernie's research was from the MGWR's Traffic Minute books, which I extensively trawled in the past. He will have picked up, I guess, a reference to a goods loco being painted unlined blue. Clements' comments suggest it was the exception.

3.  Sorry, I know it's a bit of an essay by now; but bear with me! The pic of "Titanic" (a FINE beast!) is unfinished; I suggest that it's blue, but lining, lettering and crest have not  yet been applied. The postcard in a lime green colour, like almost all postcards, is not correct. I looked back at my notes of what bob Clements told me just now. he mentioned the green being put back "as before", but when I spoke with him he did not mention it being lighter. Having said that, it could be simply because i did not ask him! Several other sources suggest a slightly lighter shade, but not exactly a "light" green at all - maybe "grass" green instead of "emerald" green (Clements used both those terms). The green livery would also start disappearing in 1915, when just Inchicore was abandoning black lined in red for all-over grey, now Broadstone starts painting locos black; plain if goods, with red lining if mixed traffic / passenger! Bob Clements did say, though, that repaints into black did not take place at a fast rate, and at the time of the amalgamation many engines were still green - one as late as 1932 before the GSR sheep-dipped it grey.

4.  Regarding "Celtic" and the Royal train......yes, I would agree that the artist has used his famous "licence" with regard to the postcard; such things can never be taken as an accurate livery guide. The locomotive was almost certainly in the dark blue livery, and the carriages definitely were.

The "Royal" or "State" Saloon, later No. 346 with CIE, actually spent most of its life indoors. Long after what few carriages HAD been blue and white were repainted brown again, this vehicle retained the blue and white livery until it was eventually repainted in the Midland's post-1918 maroon livery shortly before the GSR took over.

If that postcard is taken from a photo, this will presumably show the coaches clearly in black and white. This will account for the fact that the postcard painter appears to have the brown upper panels looking a bit lighter then the lower ones; and he is presumably aware that at the time, MOST trains had green engines and brown carriages!

 

Thanks again for such a detailed answer! You should really write a book yourself with all this knowledge!

That has cleared a lot of my queries but I'm still very puzzled by the colour on "Titanic". I've attached the photo as I'm not sure if you've seen it or not but I just can't see this colour being the blue livery as you say. To me, the blue livery has always shown to be really dark in black+white photos, yet here 'Titanic' is seen freshly painted in this light colour.

Thanks once again.

[jhb171achill]

I agree, Tobin. It’s hard to tell. Whatever livery it is in, it’s unfinished as there is no lining, no crest and no “M G W R” on the tender.

Blue has a habit of appearing as a very light grey or a very dark grey in black & white pics depending on the daylight in which it was taken. GSR / CIE grey is also 57 varieties in old pictures, even if it reasonably consistent in real life. The loco above could be green or blue....

Pity the lining isn’t on it, as that would give a clue.