Mol_PMB

Have a read of this thread...

Haha! I could probably do with a bit more patience! Having torn apart the bubble and made a start on regauging it, I've realised that I need a different type of bearing. So I've put that to ones side and done some more work on the H vans. I now have 6 bodies with all the detailing, painting and lettering complete, and ready for weathering. I also have 4 chassis complete and painted, also ready for weathering. 3 more chassis are progressing well through the re-gauging process. And I've been measuring up a Parkside palvan body as the basis of an 'H' palvan body to go on the spare chassis. Note, this isn't going to be a 'normal' palvan, but one of the prototypes converted from fitted H vans.

From 3 feet away as you said, they would be fine. The NCC's flush-sided stock was mostly non-corridor suburban vehicles, like this one: Have a look through Ernie's album (and the book, if you buy it) and you can compare the stock yourself to see whether it meets your own definition of having potential.

Have a look in Ernie's NCC album for some inspiration. There are some late 1930s photos here, and of course some of the carriages from that period remained in use well into UTA days as shown in the 1950s photos. https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishswissernie/albums/72157626750300070 Some examples from pre-UTA days:

OK, so the UTA began in 1948, so you're thinking of the late 1930s, 4-4-0s and 2-6-0s hauling most passenger trains but no Jeeps yet. Definitely the Bachmann LMS panelled corridor stock would be your best bet. Potentially also Hornby LMS suburban coaches for local services.

John, Apologies for going off at a tangent, but in this context can you still offer the tin van etches? I appreciate that they were a dozen years ago and you have a lot on your plate at present, so feel free to say no!

Do you have a particular era in mind? Stock built by/for the NCC in the LMS period was generally in similar style to that built for the LMS itself, but there were always subtle differences in dimensions (length, width, arrangement of compartments etc) and of course gauge! After a lot of NCC coaches were destroyed in a bombing raid during the second war, to replace them some former LMS coaches (including pre-grouping types) were transferred to the NCC and regauged. So in principle there are quite a lot of RTR stock which 'looks right' from a distance, but very little that's exactly right. The Bachmann (ex Mainline) panelled LMS corridor coaches would be a fair starting point. You might also consider a cheap secondhand copy of this book, which will give you much more detail! https://www.amazon.co.uk/LMS-Ireland-Mark-Kennedy/dp/1857800974

Good news! Can you tell us what it is yet?

While waiting for some paint to dry on the H van chassis, I'm having a go at voiding the warranty on a bubble. So far, it has come apart fairly easily with the only major problem being the brake safety loops - which I won't need for the 1965 batch bubble which this will become.

I have spent some more time peering at this NLI photo dated June 1967. https://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000306218: The first two wagons definitely have a long brake lever extending past the vee hanger, and so they are from the 1967 batch. That would explain why they're so clean - they are almost brand new. Now, look at the underframe - it's a pale colour, apparently matching the tank. Being new, the wagons are clean and the colour hasn't been influenced by weathering. It's definitely not black. I've had a look through more books and my back-issues of IRRS journals (not a complete set by any means) and found a couple more useful photos of grey bubbles. The book '35 Years of NIR' (Allen) page 92 has a colour photo at Portadown dated June 1968, showing BUT railcars on the Enterprise with a long rake of grey bubbles adjacent. Although the photo is at an awkward angle looking along the train, parts of the underframe of the nearest wagon are clearly visible and sun-lit. They are grey, matching the tank colour. I can't quite tell whether that bubble is from the 1965 or 1967 batch (it's not a 1964). The IRRS Journal October 2013 issue - vol 25 no.182 - has a colour photo on p384 showing A40 and B161 hauling a rake of grey bubbles (and brake van) off the Foynes loop at Limerick. The photo is undated but must pre-date A40's re-engining in 1969. Most of the bubbles have moderate weathering, but there's one towards the back of the train that stands out as having a clean grey underframe, and it appears to be a 1967 batch (again it's a bit indistinct). So, I'm coming to the conclusion that the 1967 batch were indeed delivered in grey, but it was all-over grey - no black underframe. The IRM models of grey bubbles all have black underframes. Ernie's photo of 25068 looks like good evidence of black underframes on the 1964 batch of wagons: I'm now undecided about the underframe colour for the 1965 batch! It must be said that after a bit of weathering from cement dust and brake dirt, the original colour of the underframe is rather hard to distinguish in most photos, especially monochrome images. Perhaps a good dose of weathering on the models is the answer! Here are two colour photos of a whole train of grey bubbles in the 1960s, which give no useful information on underframe paint colour! https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53449790845/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54257011099/ Another whole-train photo from the IRRS archive, dated 'm1960s' but I think it's 1969/70 based on A31's livery. Not very useful for wagon livery details though: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53447019558/ Another 'm1960s' photo. A 1965-batch bubble is in the background, already looking pretty grubby: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53447018728/ So far, I haven't found a colour photo that clearly shows a mixture of original grey and orange liveries. Seems odd, it must have happened in the livery transition period. The liveries can be hard to distinguish in monochrome photos though. I'd better get back to some modelling rather than just researching the next project. Hopefully someone else has some late 1960s bubble photos that would confirm the liveries of each batch?

Thanks to ebay and @Stoby of this parish, I now have a full set of IRM grey bubbles - only two packs were produced in this livery: From left to right, we have 25069, 25083, 25084, 25109, 25159, 25187. All the IRM bubbles are the same moulding, which accurately represents the later batches (delivered in 1970-1972), but the early grey ones had some detail differences. Of course there's nothing I like more than destroying the value of collectable models by modifying and weathering them, so I'll be working on these fairly soon to back-date their details. The brakes are the biggest difference but there are many other detail adjustments needed. And of course I need to re-gauge them which isn't so straightforward on these early IRM models. In preparation for that I've been reviewing the available photos of grey bubbles and I thought I'd just summarise the findings here (some of it repeats links earlier in this thread, but I have found some more). As correctly modelled by IRM, the 'BULK CEMENT' lettering is white on the grey bubbles, which helps to distinguish the grey livery in black and white photos. There's also the date as a clue, of course. In the IRRS archive, a photo at Inchicore dated February 1964 with what must one of the first bubbles, still in primer I think: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53505734117 From the NLI O'Dea collection, a bulk cement train (mix of 1964 and 1965 batches) at Straffan in 1965 https://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000306759 From the IRRS archive, two photos of a pair of bubbles at Boyne Road in 1966. The nearer one is 25074 of the 1965 batch, and the other is from the 1964 batch: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53508783939 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53508466241/ From the IRRS archive, a bulk cement train at Hazelhatch in 1966. The wagons are a mix of the 1964 and 1965 batches: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54327467196/ From the NLI O'Dea collection, a photo of 25062 (1964 batch) at Derry in 1967 https://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000307375 From the NLI O'Dea collection, a bulk cement train (the nearer four are all from the 1965 batch, including 25083) at KIldare in 1967 https://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000306704 From the NLI O'Dea collection, a bulk cement train (mix of 1964 and 1965 batches, possibly the two clean ones at the front might be 1967 batch?) at Hazelhatch in 1967 https://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000306218 Other NLI and IRRS photos with distant views of bulk cement trains in 1967, few details visible: https://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000306208 https://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000306209 https://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000307373 https://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000306207 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53570455706/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53447301180/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54257011099 From Ernie on Flickr, a super pair of colour photos at Belfast GVS in April 1967. The wagon immediately behind the locos is 25068 (1964 batch) and the remainder are a mix of the 1964 and 1965 batches: There's also a colour photo of a grey bubble at Derry in 1967 in the 'UTA in Colour' (Young) book, page 66 Another colour photo in the IRRS archive showing Cabra in February 1968. Only 3 bubbles are visible, all rather distant but all grey: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53510447552/ A black and white photo of Cabra also in 1968: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511485009/ So then, we've got up to the year 1968, and very confident that the 1964 and 1965 batches carried the grey livery initially. Not so sure about the 1967 batch based on the evidence above, many of the photos pre-date their construction. Can anyone confirm? I haven't found any bubble photos dated 1969, but there are lots of them in 1970, maybe because they changed colour. In June 1970, here's 25129 of the 1970 batch being painted for the first time. Most of the tank is still in primer, with its delivery address stencilled on and even bearing the name of the ship it crossed the water on! But the tank is being painted orange and the underframe grey. So the 1970 batch never carried the original grey tank and black underframe livery: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53570447106 But it wasn't just the new ones that were orange. Here are 25051 and 25053, from the 1964 batch, each with a coat of orange in May 1970: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53510419397/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511314086/ From Jonathan Allen on Flickr, a whole train in orange in October 1970, and this includes wagons from the 1964 batch as well as newer types: Again from Jonathan Allen, this rake contains 1964, 1965 and 1967 or 1970 wagons in orange, photo dated December 1970: By the early 1970s everything was orange: So, it seems that there was a major (and surprisingly rapid) repainting campaign in 1969-1970, the older wagons becoming orange, and the newly built wagons in 1970 and 1972 entering service in orange. That sets my grey rake firmly in the 1960s, and requires me to back-date the details to the 1964 and 1965 batches, maybe also the 1967 batch as I haven't quite confirmed if they entered service in grey or orange.

As long as the horse remained attached to a goods van full of gubbins, I reckon it could be done in 7mm scale. Especially if the layout was lit so that links between the van and the horse were partly in shadow, just like this (also one of Ernie's):

Yes, the IRM customer service humans are wonderful and very much appreciated. Thank you! i did have a run-in with their AI when it started lying to me, and then made up more lies to try and cover its tracks! Hopefully that experiment has stopped now.

As ever, I am trying to do too many things at once! When I’ve got this batch of vans finished, I ought to go back to some of my unfinished projects like E407, two more wooden open wagons and the 20’ flat wagons. But I’ve also got six secondhand IRM cement bubbles in stock, all grey ones, and all wrong, needing some attention to backdate them to what bubbles really did look like when they were grey. They are calling me to rip them apart, regauge and modify to make them right! My OCD is troubled… Maybe in a couple of weeks time I’ll deal with the bubbles and create a nice mid-60s cement train.

Inspired! They look superb. It’s amazing what natural materials can offer to the modeller, this is great inspiration to the rest of us. Thank you!