Mayner

I have never attempted a blog before, GSWR101s thread seems to have stirred up considerable interest in the practical side of 21mm gauge modelling so I though I would write up my experience with rolling stock conversions and leave the locos to a later date. I first tried my hand in 21mm in the early 1980s but it took about 10 years to develop the necessary experience to achieve half decent results. I was an MRSI member, some of the more influential members were starting to modify or scratchbuild Irish locos and stock but most of the more senior modellers were interested in the Big Four, American or Continental railway. At the time the standard of British rtr just did not compare in detail or running quality with Fleischmann, Trix, Liliput, Marklin or even Athearn. Having a contrary nature scratchbuilding and doing your own thing appealed more than following the crowd and my pocket did not stretch beyond buying plaasticard and the odd Lima Loco. There was very little information or models available at the time Tim Cramer published a series of articles and drawings in Model Railways, the occasional drawing and article appeared in the Modeller and Constructor. Around this time articles on Richard Chowns O Scale WLWR layout, Iain Rice's series on Tregarrick and the original Advaoyle prompted me to have a go in 21mm. Little or no information was available on wheel or track standards at the time Tim Cramer quoted a 19.5 wheel B-B dimension in an article in the moddeller in the 1970s, David Malone produced a detailed how to article on modelling to S4 Standards in Practical Model Railways. I work to use a set of TMD 21mm gauges with a B-B of 19.5 with EM profile wheel sets although 19.3 is recommended to deal with Romford/Jackson and other coarser wheel profiles allowable in EM. There were few suitable kits and no rtr models available, Terry McDermott introduced a MGWR tank loco kit and the Model Wagon Company Ardrossan a GNR(I) cattle wagon. Des McNally started to introduce the range of MIR whitemetal kits of then contemporary wagons a bit modern for the late 1950-60s period. My first train was made up of an ex MGWR Achill Bogie with a Lima 4F tender drive, & a pair of ex MGWR coaches all in plastciard very pretty but it did not run very well or even stay on the track. Suitable axles and suspension units were not available at the time, wheel sets ran in home made inside bearings, wheels were simply pushed out on their axles to the correct Back to Back. Most of my locos and stock are fitted with EM or NMRA RP 25 profile wheelsets, however, I have a few vehicles with the very good solid brass Jackson wheels supplied with Parkside kits, Bachmann and an odd profile brass wheel supplied with PC Coach Kits, thanks to John Rednup I cleared out Puffer's stock of these wheels at a substantial discount in 1988. For me the big break through was Mike Sharmans huge range of loco, bogie and tender wheels all supplied with extended axles which the user cut to length. I could at least build 21mm locos that could run even if they looked pretty bad Suitable coach and wagon wheels were still a major problem although Alan Gibson advertised 21mm wheel sets with 28mm axles, he does not appear to have been prepared to supply, however Ultrascale supply their excellent wheels in 21mm to S4 or EM tyre profile. Another way around the problem is to cut and sleeve a standard 26mm axle with 2mm ID brass tube from Eilleen's Emphorium. Hornby Stanier bogie with .060" bolster, PC wheelsets axles sleeved with 2mm brass tubing The nasty bit Dapol solebars packed out with 1mm plasticard The break through in 21mm modelling came with the introduction of by the S4 Society and Studio Scale Models or suitable W Iron assemblies. MJT produce a very usefull inside bearing unit originally designed for fitting compensation to RTR Models http://www.dartcastings.co.uk/mjt/2291.php Ratio LNWR open converted to 21mm with MJT inside bearing units I think the wheelss are Gibson or Magib OO or EM wheelsets pushed out to a 19.5 Back to Back MJT also produce a coach compensation unit that can be adjusted out to 21mm gauge. http://www.dartcastings.co.uk/mjt/2224.php MJT CCU packed out to 21mm

For those that consider railcars too exciting there is always the BRUT station trolley SIG in the UK http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/gansg/9-loads/11-truck.htm I think the whole attitude to model railways and modelling has improved since I was growing up at a time railways were considered to be finished and there was something distinctly odd about teenagers let alone grown men playing with train sets. These days I find work colleagues a lot more open about their hobbies these days its not considered odd for someone to support the All-Blacks, The Warriors and be involved in some or several forms of modelling or collecting. Mind you each society has its own hang ups despite the relative success of the All Whites soccer players are considered a bit odd. Going on to the Alpha generation our two and half year old daughter has mastered the remote control for her own battery powered model train and there is hell to play if she does not get to send off the 17:30 when I get home from work in the evening. John

There was a piece on the whole fiasco in a paper by Dan Renihan in one of the IRRS Journals during the late 70 early 80s. Basically the Government forced CIE to cancel the order when the company was nationalised, but accepted the engines and possibly electrical equipment and stored them to avoid financial penalties. The B101s were probably a superior locomotive in terms of engine, electrical system, braking and running gear compared to the Yanks and Bo Bos, their low power to weight ratio compared with the GM locos was probably an advantage in working heavy freight and passenger trains in poor rail conditions. CIE seem to have got it right in combining the excellent Swiss Sulzer engine and Metrovick electrical system in both its original Inchacore built and the Birmingham Sulzers. Most of the problems with the BR Sulzer Type 2s were down to problems with the Brush & GEC traction motors which were not really suitable for freight locomotives. The Metrovick electrical system was considered very good the 001 had no problems in hauling heavy freights up the gullet from Islandbridge Junction or out of Cork, while the 121,141 & 071 classes are considered slippy, the less said about the suitability of the GM bogie for passenger work the better They originally seem to have been worked hard on Top Link Passenger duties on the Cork Line and Rosslare-Cork Boat trains, then concentrated around Waterford and Limerick on freight duties as the B141s took over main line passenger links. I vaguely remember seeing Black B101s in the early 70s on Heuston-North Wall transfer freights and on parcel trains at Dunlaoire.

I think there is a more positive attitude to the hobby and modelling these days, its more acceptable for teenagers and grow men to be playing with model cars, trains and planes than when I was growing up Our two and a half year old daughter operates the remote control for her our own battery powered train and sends of the 17:30 departure most eveningings otherwise there is hell to pay John

Flatbottom rail was/is more or less the standard throughout the World with the exception of the UK where Bullhead was the standard from the mid 1800s up to the 1960s. In the early days there was a lot of experimentation with rail profiles until most railways settled on Vignoles or Flatbottom and Bullhead rail in cast iron chairs on cross sleepers. The original idea behind bullhead was a double headed rail that could be turned over and re-used when the running surface became worn, two years ago I was amazed to find a siding laid with such rail still in use in South island. Typical Bullhead track before extension of DART to Greystones. Traditional Irish FB track with the rail supported on cast iron baseplates with Fangbolt fixing through sleepers. The slide chairs support the moving part of the point blades. This system was used on most main and secondary lines, on some branchs and secondary lines like the SLNCR the rails were spiked directly to the sleepers with baseplates and fang bolts sometimes used at the joints and every 4- 5th sleeper. Modern FB wooden sleepers with pandrol fixings Crew Curve Shrewsbury. None of the British track systems quite capture the look of Irish flatbottom track traditional or modern. I use soldered construction with pcb sleepers. I never had much success with solder paint so I apply paste or liquid flux to the joint between rail & sleeper with a small brush then introduce a tiny bead of solder which flows into the joint by capillary action. It takes a bit of practice but becomes surprisingly fast. John

and your talking of letting them loose with soldering irons & lectricity:rolleyes:

At the time most British and American Export locos would probably have been too heavy for CIEs needs, thoe light weight GMs did not arrive until the early 1960s. The A Class was basically a very good loco with a crappy engine equally capable of fast passenger work and low speed lugging on heavy freight work. The most interesting thing about the B101 Class is that BRCW used the engines and possibly electrical system from a cancelled 1948 order for 6 twin engined diesels for the Cork Line. Goodness knows what these would have looked like but the idea was pretty much in line with contemporary GM E Units, at the time someone in CIE was heavily influenced by the states and there were plans for a single ended A Unit and a luxury train presumably a streamliner for the tourists, quite a contrast to ancient looking GSWR stock in the train at the adjoining platform The order seems to have been cancelled as a result of political pressure and the engines stored for several years before being used in the B Class. John

Interesting place Clara once an industrial town a junction for two branch lines with two stations and private sidings to Goodbody's Jute Mill and Ranks Grain & Flour Mills. There are some interesting photos of Clara with a newly introduced G Class making up the Banagher Goods in the O'Dea Collection at the National Library The Banagher Branch left the main line at Clara and Banagher Junction about a mile West of the station, Goodbodies siding trailed into the main line in the background behind the IWT Liner, the sidings were still there into the 1970s, the chimney in the background may be part of the old mill. The goods yard was in the area between the station building and the trees in the distance, with the goods shed in the middle distance behind the DFDS Liner. A siding ran out of this yard to serve Ranks Grain elevators, Ranks had some very neat bulk grain wagons lettered Ranks Ireland Limerick and Clara. The Midland branch from Streamstown made a facing connection towards Tullamore just beyond the end of the train in the far distance, there was a signal cabin and exchange platform at the junction together with the Midland Goods and Loco shed, Midland branch followed the tree line in the far distance. Clara always had a single passenger platform there was once a second goods loop off the down loop allowing shunting to take place a a loco to run round a train without blocking the main running line. John

Peter Johnsons original Canada Road inspired me to have a go at an urban Irish layout, you can squeeze a lot more in if you dont have to make room for a passenger station. I was a fan of Eastwell the East Midlands Ironstone layout and my first successful use of handlaid points and track was on an 8'x1'6" self contained EM Gauge mineral line based on Iain Rices Bankfoot design capable of keeping an operator busy for hours positioning wagons for loading and making up trains. The 21mm layout is in stasis at the moment I dropped a real clanger in allowing the minimum 6' clearance between running lines on the dock layout with coaches side swiping on curves, I need to do a re-design open up clearance between running lines on curves and between the running lines and yard. The copper clad track is fine for flatbottom, though I will probably use a mixture of chaired bullhead and flatbottom on ply sleepers when ever I geet round to building a larger layout. Unless you want a double track tail chaser or model the present day scene the short trains and infrequent services on many lines should not be too much of an issue. I started out with plans for Kilmessan Junction on the Meath Road, made a start on Ballymoe on the Mayo Line and have long term plans build a Burma Road model based on Kiltamagh one of the more compact stations. Passenger trains often conveyed vans and non-passenger stock that was attached and de-tached at wayside stations, and overload goods operated where the regular goods exceeded the loading for the allocated locomotive. On the GNR most trains on the Irish North seeem to have more vans than coaches, while CIE was quite happy to attach vans cattle trucks and container wagons to passenger trains on many routes. There is a nice photo of a B121 passeneger train entering Ennis in the early 1960s in Rails in the West made up of 2 coachees 2 luggage vans and 2 cattle wagons

Good to see another modeller having a go and pre-amalgamation too, Paul Greene the former owner of SSM models the GSWR in S Scale and has built a model based on Killorglin complete with green J15. It might be worth while building a small layout or test track to get something running and act as a primer while planning the grand project, I started work on a small urban shunting layout based on the Liffey Branch to get something running while I eventually sort out space for a larger layout, however I need to carry out some major adjustments to the trackwork as I left clearances too tight with carriages side swiping on curves. Iain Rice had good ideas about modelling bits of stations, loco depots or goods yards rather than a spralling country station, there are even a few plans which morphed out of Westport Quay . John

Dont be leaving out the Travellers and the buiders what about a Hiace? Boss

Your warped like poor old 356

Steve layouts are mentioned on the Leamington & Warwick club website http://www.lwmrs.co.uk/CMS/index.php/members-layouts. His stock used to show up regulary at the Banbury & Warwick exhibitions quite a contrast to the usual BR and the Big Four. I have a sneaking suspicion he built a modern image 21mm layout which appeared in one of the English magazines in the 1980s, which used widened SMP track and a mixture of MIR& Q Kits and converted rtr. Dave Malone has published a number of articles on 21mm gauge modelling. 1. Modelling Irish Railways to P4 Standards Practical Model Railways Dec 1984 which provides a usefull over view. 2. A series of articles in "Model Railway Digest" in the 1990s including track, signalling, rolling stock. The digest is available from Mainly Trains http://www.mainlytrains.co.uk/acatalog/4mm.html. John

Its a great reference I came across it by accident while looking for a photo of the 500s. Those small wheeled Coey D4 4-4-0s had such a massive powerfull modern look compared to the large wheeled version the D10-12. If you want ugly look at the inside cylinder Coey Moguls http://www.smugmug.com/gallery/18279129_TbnP49#!i=1744829413&k=wN8vPQG&lb=1&s=L. John

Joe My ego bubble has swollen a Guru indeed I have visions of the followers of true gauge making their way to Hamilton seeking Enlightment only to find like Dorothy that its only smoke and mirrors . The decision to work in 21mm rather than stick with OO is really a matter of how you want to spend your time and the amount of space you have available. It will take considerably longer to build a simple layout in 21mm than EM or S4 and even longer still than in OO where a surprising amount can be achieved in a very short space of time. Track can be built with C&L or Protofour Track Co components, or more traditional ply or copper clad sleeper methods, with pracctice a point can be built in about 2 Hours. While some companies produce ready made crossing Vs and switch blades, they are easy enough to file from rail, the EM Gauge Society produces a really usefull filing jig, but its only really suitable for bullhead rail. Iain Rices books on Finescale Track and building track with copper clad sleepers are essential refrence guides. The S4 & EM Gauge Society members receive manuals that basically covers everything from Baseboard construction to operation which is worth the cost of membership alone. Exactoscale probably produce the best wheel sets in the World well worth the expense and wait, Gibson wheels are less expenssive and readily available and Jackson do very good EM/OO profile wagoncoach wheelsets. Exactoscale will supply 21mm wheel sets to order with 28mm pin point axles or plain axles for locos. My local supplier Northyard produce a 28mm S Scale axle, metric bolts, gearboxes and other usefull components postage from NZ is relatively inexpensive compared with the UK and US. http://northyard.co.nz/. I am currently designing a small range of kits suitabe for 21mm or OO Gauge based around the Northyard axle. John

I have a sneaking suspicion that the idea of the upturned headlight was also intended to assist in locating the Asahi Liner in case of emergency. Not sure what the crew were supposed to do if anything went wrong without telephone or eadio communication on a remote section of the Ballina Branch. John

While the diesels are basically mass produced US or Britsh designs most of the steam locos were designed and built for Irish conditions and some classes were quite advanced and ahead of their time. 1. GSWR 500 Class 4-6-0 first modern mixed traffic 4-6-0 distinctive "modern" GSWR/GSR styling probably 10 years ahead of the LMS Black 5 & GWR Grange. Probably GSWR/GSR/CIE most useful 4-6-0 design. http://www.smugmug.com/gallery/18279129_TbnP49#!i=1744829609&k=fn3pWmG 2.GSWR 333 (D4) 4-4-0 large boilered 4-4-0 designed for the Rosslare Route powerfull simple lightish axleload go nearly anywhere design standard motive power on the DSER Line so good the GSR built another 5 in 1935. http://www.smugmug.com/gallery/18279129_TbnP49#!i=1406411983&k=bjfdVK4&lb=1&s=M http://www.smugmug.com/gallery/18279129_TbnP49#!i=1508581668&k=nSzSZXq&lb=1&s=M 3.GSWR 60 (D14) 4-4-0 simple very fast 19th Century design some modernised by the GSR in the 1920s http://www.smugmug.com/gallery/18279129_TbnP49#!i=1784579086&k=7g6fFsH&lb=1&s=M 4. MGWR K Class (GSR 650 G2) 2-4-0 one of the best Midland passenger/mixed traffic designs eqqually at home on DSER suburban services, Midland Mail Trains and Branch Line Services the last 2-4-0s in Europe http://www.smugmug.com/gallery/18279129_TbnP49#!i=1744829685&k=KWqjJn2&lb=1&s=M 5. GSR/CIE KN2 2-6-0T The Tralee and Dingle Hunslets. Typical Hunslet design tough and extremly good steamers. The only engines that survived the Tralee and Dingle, West Clare and Cavan & Leitrim. http://www.tdlr.org.uk/stock.htm John John

Totally off topic I think Ulick O'Connor once compared rugby and soccer to Gaelic Football saying that the latter was a Hooligans Game played by Hooligans. John

I think 21mm is more a choice of whether you get more enjoyment out of the building or operating/looking at a finished model. Whatever the technical difficulties time and space are the biggest issues. After 20 odd years working in 21mm I am still struggling to find space for even a simple 21mm gauge layout, layouts like Anthony's or Amiens St would be difficult if not impossible to build in any realistic space or timeframe in 21mm. Most of the more successsfull ones like Adavadoyle, Loughrea or Belturbet have largely been group efforts and taken a long time. Tony Mills had already developed his own track and wheel standards before commencing the second Adavoyle layout in the 1980s, the MRSI Loughrea layout has taken roughly 20 years and a number of re-builds to reach its present state. I would say if you are prepared to spend the time its well worth the effort, however its best to stick to OO if you want to build a large or complex operating layout. John

That pubs something else! darker inside than a pint of Guinness:tumbsup: can almost smell the smoke and hear the caint ceol & craic! It hard to know whats best to do with OO the gauge pack out the bogie or wagon sideframes the guage is already undersized for Standard Gauge and the move to finer wheel sets makes it look worse. The older O gauge modellers stuck to coarse scale wheel sets, but do you really notice the difference frrom 2 foot when a train is running? John

201bhoy Although your basic trackplan is excellent, I think its going to be difficult to fit it into an 8X4. It might be better to try one of the worked plans from http://www.freetrackplans.com/802-Trafford-Park.php or the Peco Setrack Manual. Another point to consider is forming an operating well in the middle, otherwise you will have to place the baseboard in the middle of the room. You are likely to be restricted to 1st radius curves and you would be better with locos like 141s and 4w wagons rather than 201s MK3 Coaches and bogie wagons. Its probably best to treat your 8X4 as a stepping stone to a larger layout. John

Are the Irish graffeti crews associated with street gangs or is it a separate thing? In this part of the world taggers tend to be gang wanabees and tagging is a way of marking out the gangs territory in much the same way as other animules. John

While the 121s probably saved the railway, it was only because the Metrovicks were so unreliable. They were a light weight GM Export loco rather than a switcher underpowered for fast passenger operation and under braked for working freights. I wonder why CIE went direct to the States when GM locos were being built on the Continent, was it anything to d with the Kennedys? Nohab http://www.jernbanesider.dk/page170.html who had been building double cabbed GM locos under license in Sweden and Belguim since the early 1950s. An MY would have looked impressive than a 121 on the Enterprise. John

Not a cattle wagon or great quality but they say a picture is worth a 1000 words. Tralee 1978 unfitted on the left red oxide fitted on the right grey oxide! CIE seems to have started painting its wagons red oxide at some stage in the 60s, but a lot remained grey to the end some even had the snail logo. Traditionally like the UK both braked and loose coupled goods trains had to have a guards van, from the late 60s modern wagons like bulk cement and flat wagons carring ISO Containers, kegs and fertiliser often ran in the consist of loose coupled trains. For a long time the "Derry Vaccum" was Ireland's only fast freight carrying traffic for County Donegal under customs seal through Northern Ireland. This was started by the GNR and continued in one form or other until the withdrawl of general freight traffic from Derry in the 1980s John

Frank I would'nt get too bogged down in picking an actual place or wondering if anyone has modelled it. Basically anything is plausibe the way that the railways turned out and some towns have prospered and others declined is a matter of history, at one stage or other there were rival plans to link basically every town and city in the country Rather than a branch or secondary line it might be worth looking at a traffic base similar to main lines like Tralee, Westport or Sligo, typically 2-3 Intercity passenger trains each way, Overnight Mail or Newspaper train, Overnight Liner to from the North Wall and cement, fertiliser, oil etc as required. The 1950-early 70s era is probably better if you are planning to use a way bill system as CIE basically eliminated shunting and went over to fixed formation freight train operation in the late 70s. Although a lot of specialised wagons were introduced these either ran in dedicated Company Trains or blocks of wagons attached to the scheduled overnight Liner (container) Trains. CIE basically operated a traditional steam era railway with diesel locos up to the early 1970s complete with mechanical signalling, turntables and loose formation passsenger trains. While turntables and locos sheds were retained at many depots, during the late 70s CIE tended to take out surplus trackage in goods yards most yards were reduced to one or two sidings or loops in some cases loading was carried out on the running line. John