Signalling at Scarva

[Lambeg man]

I am in the mind to model an adaptation of the layout at Scarva. However a study of all available pre-1962 (when the cabin was abolished) photographs gives little indication of where the signals were. One Camwell photo from 1949 (when the footbridge in the middle of the station was still in place) shows the double UP starter on the DOWN side just before the road bridge so favoured by most photographers.

Surely there must have been starters at the end of the northern end of the UP and Branch platform? Any advice gratefully received. .

[LARNE CABIN]

Hi @Lambeg man, I am sure that you are much more knowledgeable than myself on these matters (I saw your input to the discussion on the 1944 mystery photo), and I'm sure you are already aware of what follows, but, as you ask for any advice I will contribute the following.

The photo on page 39 of R M Arnold's The Golden Years of The Great Northern Railway Part Two of SG2 16 hurrying past Scarva with a ballast train suggests that behind all the smoke from 16 there is the base of a signal post. This is confirmed in the film Off The Beaten Track - Scarva to Banbridge and Newcastle, (utube, at 4min 44secs approx), shows a Down Starter at the Norhern end of the Up Platform. Although the photo is very clear, there is no evidence of any other signals, apart from the vague suggestion of a Down Advanced Starter, on the Down Side a bit beyond the cabin.

There is no indication of any signalling on the branch. The article in the IRRS Journal, No 109 June 1989, 'The Banbridge Lines' , states 'The line was worked under the regulations for One Engine in Steam', but how would a goods say from Banbridge to Newry or Banbridge to Poradown via Scarva be signalled from the branch unto the Up Main Line?

Just a few observations, which as I said I am sure you are aware of. An Ordinance Survey Map of the 30's/40's would be good, as they usually indicate Signal Posts.

As an aside, @Patrick Davey of this parish, has a thread on the Workbench Forum, 'Two GNR(I) Buildings', where he describes the building of both a GNR(I) Signal Box and a GNR(I) Waiting Shed. Although the Signal Box at Scarva was far from typical GNR(I), in fact it was fairly unique and would make a great modelling project, the Waiting Shed is a definite candidate for Scarva.

[Patrick Davey]

This gives the location of the signals:

https://mapshop.nidirect.gov.uk/Catalogue/Digital-products/Historical-products/6-Inch-to-1-Mile-County-Series-Edition-4-1916---1957-

Zoom in to Scarva and all is there for that particular date, 1954 I think.

[Mayner]

18 hours ago, Lambeg man said:

Many thanks to BSGSV for providing a full answer to this one. The down line was provided with a distant, then an outer home, then an inner home that was sited outside the 'Long Siding' for sighting purposes. The up starter was around the bend from the platform and there was an advanced starter further on. The same arrangement applied for the up line, the double armed repeater up starter being on the down platform. At the north end of the up platform was a starter for the branch bay only. A single branch home was situated beyond the bridge.

The two trailing crossovers between the up and down main lines, the lead into the branch and the access to the 'Long Siding' were all provided with shunting disc ground signals.

BSGSV states "I don't see any discs acting as running signals, just for shunt moves. I'm surprised that the branch was as self-contained as it was. There's no running signals to get passenger trains to the branch from the main line, or vice versa. Compared to the main line part of the layout, shunt discs on the branch and its run-round are quite sparse. It's just a layout for a branch train shuttling to and from the bay platform.   

The GNR (I) had a reputation of being 'economic" when it came to signalling  known for its shorter than usual signal arms and telegraph poles for posts

There would have been no requirement for signals to control run round movements at Scarva if the branch was operated on the 'One engine" system.

Presumably movements to an from the branch were controlled by hand signals from the signal man, the outer homes would have allowed Scarva to accept a train from Portadown or Pontzypass while a train was a shunting move was taking place in the station or a passenger movement between the main line and branch or vice versa.

[BSGSV]

14 hours ago, Lambeg man said:

Yet between 1933 up to 1955 the Branch Railcar/Railbus (plus the steam substitutions) regularly ran from Banbridge (through Scarva) to either Goraghwood or Newry.

Question - which crossover did they use to reverse when heading north? Arriving at the UP platform and conducting any Scarva station business there, reversal might have been through the southern trailing crossover, leading then to a straight run through the UP platform and onto the Branch line and away for Banbridge. Yeah?    

I take it you mean when heading towards Banbridge, they went to the Down platform first? Could be, although as the station building was on the Up side, it could be they used the south crossover first, then stopped at the Up platform, then used the crossover to access the branch. The GNRI seem to have held a mid-19th century view that the driver should be able to stop short of any obstruction for a long time longer than they should have. There were failures to put alterations up for inspection as they should have, and running passenger trains across turnouts with facing point locks doesn't seem to have bothered them either (think Mountpleasant), just to mention two items. So I should have said that the absence of appropriate signals does not mean things did not happen!

[Mayner]

11 hours ago, Lambeg man said:

Surely the ground discs would have been sufficient indication to a driver that he was clear to carry out any such "Shunt" either way between the Main Line and the Branch? As outer homes were provided, I agree with you that another train could have been accepted into the BLOCK while such a "Shunt" was taking place. Hence no need for separate Main to Branch & Branch to Main signals?

I was thinking in terms of a hand signal for a movement that was not controlled by a running signal or a disc.

On some railways no fixed signal was provided to control a movement from a running line to a goods loop, an arriving train had to be brought to a halt at the Home signal (held at danger), before the signal man set the road and hand signaled the train into the loop or siding.

[BSGSV]

On 2/9/2022 at 10:07 PM, Lambeg man said:

Yes, mistake amended. Theoretically such a movement whereby the Railcar/Railbus then reversed from the DOWN to the UP main line would have constituted a mere "Shunt".

May be a shunt, but still a train carrying passengers. If there's no facing point lock, then the turnout should be clipped. Starting a passenger train should also be by a running signal.

[BSGSV]

13 hours ago, Lambeg man said:

As your plan shows only single disc's can it be assumed they only showed 'green' when the the point was switched to other than the normal running practice? In both 'up' and 'down' directions through the two trailing crossovers a reverse move on the main running line would have been an negative move, hence a single green to indicate a positive? If I was starting from scratch, I would have assumed there was a junction signal at the north end of the up platform to control movements from the UP main to the branch. Your input to date has been much appreciated and very informative. Many thanks.   

I don't see any "Limit of Shunt" boards on the diagram (to stop moves in the wrong direction proceeding too far), but then, there's no Facing Point Locks shown either. So I would say that, judging by the closeness of the two crossovers on the branch (to main line and run-round), there looks like there may have been one FPL locking both facing points, but there might have been one for each, if they were too far from each other. The discs on the main line crossovers and down refuge crossover would probably have only shown green with the crossover reversed. The discs either end of the crossover from Up Main to Branch probably/possibly showed green for either lie of the crossover - from Up Main platform either along the Up Main to the northern main line crossover, or onto the branch. From the branch either into the Branch platform or out to the Up Main. The disc on the branch run-round would be green for moves onto the branch proper, but yellow normal, as trains could shunt along the run-round without fouling other lines. If starting from scratch more "properly", a single semaphore would cater for moves from the Up Main platform to the branch and a bracket would only be needed if you also intended to start passenger trains from the Up Main platform to the Down Main, in which case the northern mains crossover would need an FPL at the station end, the far end being trailing.

Sorry if it's a bit complicated sounding, I only hope I've got my ducks in a row in the first place! I haven't seen a signal cabin diagram which would explain much.

[Patrick Davey]

Thanks for the mention LC!

Does Arnold not include a diagram of Scarva in that book?  As far as I recall, those diagrams included the locations of the signals?  I'll check my copy shortly as I could be wrong!

[LARNE CABIN]

That's a terrific tool, Patrick. Thanks so much for that. I can see myself getting a lot of info from that and you've answered the question for @Lambeg man.

[Patrick Davey]

14 hours ago, Patrick Davey said:

Thanks for the mention LC!

Does Arnold not include a diagram of Scarva in that book?  As far as I recall, those diagrams included the locations of the signals?  I'll check my copy shortly as I could be wrong!

No to the above - no diagram of Scarva in Arnold!

[LARNE CABIN]

2 hours ago, Patrick Davey said:

No to the above - no diagram of Scarva in Arnold!

@Patrick Davey,there are excellent diagrams of Tanderagee, Scarva, Poyntzpass and Bessbrook at the very back, but no indication of signals. (I take it that's what you meant), or is all that reconstruction work at Brookhall Mill catching up with you!

[Patrick Davey]

1 hour ago, LARNE CABIN said:

@Patrick Davey,there are excellent diagrams of Tanderagee, Scarva, Poyntzpass and Bessbrook at the very back, but no indication of signals. (I take it that's what you meant), or is all that reconstruction work at Brookhall Mill catching up with you!

Ha fair enough - I didn’t look at the back

[Lambeg man]

On 1/8/2022 at 8:04 PM, Patrick Davey said:

This gives the location of the signals:

 

On 1/8/2022 at 8:18 AM, LARNE CABIN said:

The photo on page 39 of R M Arnold's The Golden Years of The Great Northern Railway Part Two of SG2 16 hurrying past Scarva with a ballast train suggests that behind all the smoke from 16 there is the base of a signal post. This is confirmed in the film Off The Beaten Track - Scarva to Banbridge and Newcastle, (utube, at 4min 44secs approx), shows a Down Starter at the Norhern end of the Up Platform. Although the photo is very clear, there is no evidence of any other signals, apart from the vague suggestion of a Down Advanced Starter, on the Down Side a bit beyond the cabin.

Many thanks to you both, your input has been very helpful. LM

[Lambeg man]

Many thanks to BSGSV for providing a full answer to this one. The down line was provided with a distant, then an outer home, then an inner home that was sited outside the 'Long Siding' for sighting purposes. The up starter was around the bend from the platform and there was an advanced starter further on. The same arrangement applied for the up line, the double armed repeater up starter being on the down platform. At the north end of the up platform was a starter for the branch bay only. A single branch home was situated beyond the bridge.

The two trailing crossovers between the up and down main lines, the lead into the branch and the access to the 'Long Siding' were all provided with shunting disc ground signals.

BSGSV states "I don't see any discs acting as running signals, just for shunt moves. I'm surprised that the branch was as self-contained as it was. There's no running signals to get passenger trains to the branch from the main line, or vice versa. Compared to the main line part of the layout, shunt discs on the branch and its run-round are quite sparse. It's just a layout for a branch train shuttling to and from the bay platform.   

Edited September 1, 2022 by Lambeg man

[Lambeg man]

On 1/9/2022 at 12:09 PM, Lambeg man said:

There's no running signals to get passenger trains to the branch from the main line, or vice versa.

Yet between 1933 up to 1955 the Branch Railcar/Railbus (plus the steam substitutions) regularly ran from Banbridge (through Scarva) to either Goraghwood or Newry.

Question - which crossover did they use to reverse when heading north? Arriving at the DOWN platform and conducting any Scarva station business there, reversal might have been through the southern trailing crossover, leading then to a straight run through the UP platform and onto the Branch line and away for Banbridge. Yeah?    

Edited September 2, 2022 by Lambeg man

[Lambeg man]

9 hours ago, BSGSV said:

I take it you mean when heading towards Banbridge, they went to the Down platform first?

Yes, mistake amended. Theoretically such a movement whereby the Railcar/Railbus then reversed from the DOWN to the UP main line would have constituted a mere "Shunt".

 

18 hours ago, Mayner said:

Presumably movements to an from the branch were controlled by hand signals from the signal man

Surely the ground discs would have been sufficient indication to a driver that he was clear to carry out any such "Shunt" either way between the Main Line and the Branch? As outer homes were provided, I agree with you that another train could have been accepted into the BLOCK while such a "Shunt" was taking place. Hence no need for separate Main to Branch & Branch to Main signals?

Edited September 2, 2022 by Lambeg man

[Lambeg man]

On 5/9/2022 at 2:33 PM, BSGSV said:

May be a shunt, but still a train carrying passenger

As your plan shows only single disc's can it be assumed they only showed 'green' when the the point was switched to other than the normal running practice? In both 'up' and 'down' directions through the two trailing crossovers a reverse move on the main running line would have been an negative move, hence a single green to indicate a positive? If I was starting from scratch, I would have assumed there was a junction signal at the north end of the up platform to control movements from the UP main to the branch. Your input to date has been much appreciated and very informative. Many thanks.