GSWR locos and livery

[Johnny B. Good]

Hi all, I’m new to model railways and this forum, but I’ve read through a lot of discussions and I’ve already learned a lot. So thank you for that. I was hoping to figure this out myself but I just don’t have the level of knowledge you guys. But I want to set up a small track using oo scale, based roughly on the GSWR. For me, perfect replica models are just not an option, but just to get started I’ve been looking at what to a casual observer would look close enough, and then go from there. But just getting started has been frustrating. I did speak with some really helpful guys at the Railway Preservation Society who directed me here and suggested for a loco Hornby’s Dean Goods 0-6-0 2301 Class No 2538 based on my wanting to model the 101 loco (or 184/186?). And I wanted to do this because my grandfather and his older brothers worked on the GSWR, one of them staying on the same lines until the 1950’s. So I found a used Dean Goods but now the problem is the coaches. I got some cheap, ancient, Hornby 4 wheeled coaches, again just to get started, but I’d really like to know what (if any) I can look for for the future. I’ve looked at the reviews for the newer Hornsby and Hatton’s 4 and 6 wheel coaches and reviews of the ration kits, but it would be great if someone could just say look, you need a first class, 2 third class, a third class brake a composite and get this brand model. Because for me it’s hard to figure out with all the variations of possibilities based on era, line, plus what little is available. I’m trying to do something from the time of 1900 to 1925 in Kerry so coaches that have would have run at that time on Tralee, Killarney, Kenmare lines I guess? And then the problem with livery is I’ve read that GSWR cars were painted, at various times, purple, grey, light brown and green. So I was hoping my life would be easy and I could just get Hornby GWR brown/cream coaches or the GSR green coaches. Or should I just save up and get the Hornby Terrier set, as I don’t have track or power yet either! I know, totally clueless. Anyway, thanks for your patience and tolerance, and any advice would be forever appreciated.
John

[Westcorkrailway]

Perhaps number 90 could have been something to pick up?

[jhb171achill]

Hi Johnny, and a very warm welcome here - you'll find all sorts of people with all manner of good advice from technical to model availability to historical to everything else. The major Irish model manufacturers and retailers also are online here.

Good to hear you're modelling the GSWR - a masively neglected topic, given that it was the biggest and at one time most advanced railway company on this island.

Your choice of loco is fine given the circumstances you're dealing with, and the Hattons (or Hornby) six-wheelers are by far what you want. So you want to model Co Kerry (my own layout is based there too, but in CIE days). Your first question relates toi train make-up. If you look at a typical train on a main secondary line, like Mallow - Waterford, Mallow-Tralee or Tralee-Limerick, you'll be more likely to have one or two bogies coaches among six-wheelers, but if you're looking at Valentia, Kenmare, Newmarket or Mitchelstown, or before 1930 Castleisland or Fenit, a typical passenger vtrain had to cater for mail, the guard, luggage and passengers of 1st, 2nd and 3rd classes. A typical passenger train makeup might therefore be - first, second, one or two thirds, and a passenger brake which was either a full brake (two double doors and guard in the middle) or a brake third (one or two third class compartments with a smaller luggage area and guard's van in it.

On branch lines - and even the secondary main lines mentioned above, many trains were mixed. Trains to places like Fenit, Castleisland, Kenmare and several others were mostly mixed, or indeed ALL mixed. that means that you'd have the above passenger consist behind the locomotive, followed by whatever goods wagons there were on the day (more of which later) and finally a guards van, as almost no non-passenger vehicles were vacuum brake fitted.

So, the goods wagons. Go to Britain and you've rural trains back then with milk tankers, slate wagons, coal and coke wagons, and all sorts of stuff. Here' things were simpler; we have no heavy industry, so don't make the mistake of copying a train consist shown on the front of a Hornby box. The vast majority of wagons in trains here consisted of various ages and designs of the humble covered van; in GSWR days a majority of these were the very Irish "soft-top"; that is, a goods van with the roof divided into three thirds; the end sections being hard roof, the middle section open. To carry dry goods, a tarpaulin was secured over the opening, hence the nickname gfiven by railwaymen, "soft-top".  When they were used for cattle, as they were, the tarp was off to provide ventilation.

Second numerically were actual cattle wagons, because on many rural lines especially in West Cork, Kerry and the west of Ireland in general, cattle traffic was by far the biggest form of railway traffic there was. Monthly cattle fairs were huge, some loading several hundred wagons with "beasts" in a 48 hour period and leading to many cattle specials being operated.

Third - plain bog standard open wagons, which carried just about anything. The guard's van at the back, of course, is entirely obligatory until fitted trains appear in the late 1960s. A goods train before that without a van on the end is as utterly incomplete as any train with no locomotive, or as realistic as a train hauled by a clockwork unicorn.

Your little Hornby 4-wheelrs are a good start; they're certainly better than a 1960s BR Mk 1 repainted into any livery!

You mention  liveries.

Let's deal with locos first.

The GSWR had broadly three livery "eras". Prior to about 1900/01/02, all locomotives were a very dark olive green; a sample may be seen in the Malahide Model Railway Museum, which contains a treasure trove of accurate old liveries. Lining was elaborate. Originally, it was red, black, yellow and light green; later red and black, later cream and black - but all this is prior to 1900, for which you'd be looking at more scratchbuilding of stock, in all reality. In 1900 or so, they started painting locos a shiny black with red and white lining. Note - not light grey and red like BR, nor beige and red like the UTA; red and white. Some locos seemd to have mostly red. In 1915 they started painting locos all-over dark grey - the whole loco, smokebox, chimney, wheels, motion and all. No markings whatsoever, no lining - dull as ditchwater, but VERY easy to model! This livery not only outlasted the GSWR, but also its successor, the GSR, lasting on CIE on most locomotives until their replacement by diesels when steam ended in 1962.

As far as wagons were concerned, these appear to all have been either an extremely dark grey or black until the early years of the 20th century, when a mid to dark grey appeared; lettering in all cases was white. Metalwork and chassis were also the same as body colour.

Passenger vehicles were more uniform from the earliest days. Certainly by the 1880s, an extremely dark brownish maroon called "crimson lake" was introduced, so dark that in traffic it could almost look black - a bit like Guinness; hold a pint of that to the light, and it's not black - it's RED!

Lining on these vehicles was elaborate with gold leaf, red and black used initially, later simplified to gold paint. It is possible that pale yellow paint was used as an economy measure during the forst world war, as on some other lines (e.g. the BCDR & MGWR) who also used gold lining. This carriage colour remained until 1925 when the GSWR became part of the GSR; like the grey loco livery, the GSWR "crimson lake" remained in use (albeit with different markings) by the GSR for some years more.

The GSWR crest was typically carried once each side of 6-wheelers, and twice on each side of a bogie coach.

In 1906, the GSWR introduced a new express train, with new purpose-built carriages, for the Cork - Rosslare "Rosslare Express". These had the same basic livery but cream upper panels. Concurrent with the new lined black loco livery, these cream panels soon spread to other main line stock, but never to secondaery or branchline stock, which retained the all-over crimson lake.

I don't know what they were smoking in the paint labs in Inchicore when they dreamed up the name "crimson lake"; I've never seen a lake the colour of Guinness and if I did, I'd be hesitant to swim in it,  let alone drink it....

So, where do we reference these liveries?

The grey loco livery, by far the longest lasting, may be seen on the RPSI's J15 / 101 class No. 186 in Whitehead Museum. This was applied in the 1990s and several folks were still alive at the time who remembered the real thing - they said it was accurate. Just as well, as after considerable research it was matched with an actual sample. See it before they repaint this thing; apart from No. 4 and GNR locos, the RPSI's track record of loco livery accuracy is, well..........  OK; changing the subject:

There is one model in the Cyril Fry collection in Malahide in the grey too.

The coach livery is very beautifully and accurately portrayed on the Downpatrick & Co Down Railway's ex-GSWR third No. 836, in the museum at Downpatrick - this museum is a must as it also contains ex-GSWR No. 90, the 0.6.0T built for the Castleisland line - it is in full, accurately lined pre-1895 GSWR olive green livery. If you want to go back that far, you MUST go to see these two.

Mid / dark grey for wagons.

If you can't visit these places, look up their websites and you'll see photos of the vehicles mentioned.

So, how do you model all of this on the cheap?

An imaginary Kerry branchline will have a train of three to four coaches plus maybe half a dizen wagons and a guard's van on the end. If it is four coaches, there's a first, second and two thirds and a full brake, or a first, second third and brake third. Not exact science; the odd day and extra third, another day a single coach with 1st & 2nd compartments instead of a full coach for each. They had a few 1st / 3rd coaches; as long as there's accommodation for Lord & Lady Muck, and the Marquis of Ballygobackwards in 1st, the town gombeen man and the "gentleman farmer", and the bowler-hatted commercial traveller in 2nd, and the Plebs and the Great Unwashed in 3rd, that's fine. The train had accommodation for all three. Boxes of hens and fish in the van, please, not in here.

There were four wheelers in use until the early 1880s, but of a design not anything remotely similar to any British 4-wheelers. Thus, the Ratio 4-wheel kits are far, far too long, as are the Hornby / Hattons ones. Go for their SIX wheelers.

There is nothing whatsoever on the market that is even close to any type of GSWR bogie coach, unfortunately. Inchicore's designs were far too elegant for model manufacturers! So stick with your existing four wheelers for economy, but get half a dozen Hornby 6 wheelers as time and funds permit; i think they're about €40 or so. Check Mark's Models in Cork - if they haven't got any, they'll order them. They had them in Greenogue at one stage. If you buy them from Britain, you'll be crucified with VAT, Boris tax, Brexit fees, and gawd knows what else; possibly exceeding the value of the thing.

Wagons - there's only one show in town. You'll need "soft-tops". You can get kits from Studio Scale Models in Ennis. Whitemetal and a bit heave, but a good model. The GSWR guards van was very distinctive, so again, only one show in town: Provincial Models - check out Leslie McAllister's presence on here; he is the "Provincial One". Leslie also does a nice kit of a GNR goods van which isn't a million miles away from early designs of GSWR vans. Check out JM Design of New Zealand on this site too - he does several GSWR van types of later (post-1900) times.

Buy cheap Hornby / Bachmann five-plank open wagons and drown them in a pot of grey paint.

That lot above is just off the top'o'me'head; I have to walk the Elder Canine Person now or else he'll leave a present on the carpet, and I've a mountain of emails to answer. However, keep the questions coming, and if I think of anything else I'll come back here.

 

[jhb171achill]

A few observations on your initial post:

"....I’ve read that GSWR cars were painted, at various times, purple, grey, light brown and green. So I was hoping my life would be easy and I could just get Hornby GWR brown/cream coaches or the GSR green coaches...."

The "purple" was actually the "crimson lake" I mentioned above rather than actual puyrple, as such; see pics of coach 836 at Downpatrick. The RPSI have two coaches restored that way too - 1142 & 351; but not on display.

Wagons were grey, not carriages.

Nothing on the GSWR in the way of rolling stock was ever light brown or green, though locomotives were green as described above prior to 1900.

Those Hornby bogies you mention - again, not like GSWR types, though with a flat roof fitted instead of the clerestorey they come with, bear more than a passing resemblance to two Waterford, Limerick & Western vehicles which actually ended up in GSWR hands.

Green on coaches (and some locos) was used by CIE rather than the GSR, whose carriages were maroon latterly; green on coaches therefore post-dates the GSWR by twenty years. However, if like me, you chose to model a FORMER GSWR line as it would hve been in the 1950s, then one of the two CIE green liveries is yer only man.

Edited September 3, 2022 by jhb171achill

[Northroader]

Johnny, when you’ve got your engine and wagons and coaches, any thought as to where you’ll be putting them, and what sort of space you’ll be using?

[Johnny B. Good]

On 3/9/2022 at 3:15 PM, Westcorkrailway said:

Perhaps number 90 could have been something to pick up?

Yes from what I’ve read that would be a good one too. I’ll have to add it to my list!

[Johnny B. Good]

On 3/9/2022 at 4:30 PM, jhb171achill said:

A few observations on your initial post:

"....I’ve read that GSWR cars were painted, at various times, purple, grey, light brown and green. So I was hoping my life would be easy and I could just get Hornby GWR brown/cream coaches or the GSR green coaches...."

The "purple" was actually the "crimson lake" I mentioned above rather than actual puyrple, as such; see pics of coach 836 at Downpatrick. The RPSI have two coaches restored that way too - 1142 & 351; but not on display.

Wagons were grey, not carriages.

Nothing on the GSWR in the way of rolling stock was ever light brown or green, though locomotives were green as described above prior to 1900.

Those Hornby bogies you mention - again, not like GSWR types, though with a flat roof fitted instead of the clerestorey they come with, bear more than a passing resemblance to two Waterford, Limerick & Western vehicles which actually ended up in GSWR hands.

Green on coaches (and some locos) was used by CIE rather than the GSR, whose carriages were maroon latterly; green on coaches therefore post-dates the GSWR by twenty years. However, if like me, you chose to model a FORMER GSWR line as it would hve been in the 1950s, then one of the two CIE green liveries is yer only man.

Thanks so much for all that info in your posts, I’m still reading through it! And definitely has saved me from a lot of mistakes. I really appreciate it. 

[Johnny B. Good]

12 hours ago, Northroader said:

Johnny, when you’ve got your engine and wagons and coaches, any thought as to where you’ll be putting them, and what sort of space you’ll be using?

I have a large but beat up, rectangular shaped, wooden table that I plan on using. And I was planning on just doing the basic kind of two half circles with two parallel lines to start. At one end I’d like to make a street from a town and then at the other end a rural village with stone cottages. There’s something about the time period of 1900 to 1930 that I just like all the machinery - the trains, the cars, the planes, and I’d like to incorporate all of that in the layout. 

[jhb171achill]

7 hours ago, Johnny B. Good said:

I have a large but beat up, rectangular shaped, wooden table that I plan on using. And I was planning on just doing the basic kind of two half circles with two parallel lines to start. At one end I’d like to make a street from a town and then at the other end a rural village with stone cottages. There’s something about the time period of 1900 to 1930 that I just like all the machinery - the trains, the cars, the planes, and I’d like to incorporate all of that in the layout. 

A fascinating period indeed - I wish you the very best with it. What size is your table?

 

[Westcorkrailway]

In my head 

 

A gswr A dean goods or “English” J15…maybe even slightly modified 

 

A GSWR livery no.90 

coaches

a rake of the new Hornby/Hattons 6-wheel coaches. The LMS livery might be similar 

those bogey coaches are very cheap and do have the wrong roofs….but hopefully somone will fix that with a 3D printer sometime soon 

 

 

 

[jhb171achill]

If it’s 1910-30, the livery is easy - plain grey locos, no lining (or lined black, a la LNWR).

Carriages a very dark brown brownish maroon - the LMS-style maroon didn’t appear until the mid-30s.

[Johnny B. Good]

15 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

If it’s 1910-30, the livery is easy - plain grey locos, no lining (or lined black, a la LNWR).

Carriages a very dark brown brownish maroon - the LMS-style maroon didn’t appear until the mid-30s.

That’s great to hear. And I did look up the trains you mentioned to see the livery so I do see what you mean. And my table is 4’ x 8’ 

16 hours ago, Westcorkrailway said:

In my head 

A gswr A dean goods or “English” J15…maybe even slightly modified 

A GSWR livery no.90 

coaches

a rake of the new Hornby/Hattons 6-wheel coaches. The LMS livery might be similar 

those bogey coaches are very cheap and do have the wrong roofs….but hopefully somone will fix that with a 3D printer sometime soon 

Thank you! 

[jhb171achill]

Hi Johnny

Thats great news - 4 x 8 will give you an excellent start. Forgot to add - one of our esteemed members here does a kit for a GSWR signal cabin, and there’s also a model of Carlow station (GSWR) available. Someone here will provide links perhaps - must try to look it up.

 

[Johnny B. Good]

On 6/9/2022 at 7:45 AM, jhb171achill said:

Hi Johnny

Thats great news - 4 x 8 will give you an excellent start. Forgot to add - one of our esteemed members here does a kit for a GSWR signal cabin, and there’s also a model of Carlow station (GSWR) available. Someone here will provide links perhaps - must try to look it up.

 

Yeah! I’d love to see those. I have some more complete newbie questions and again I apologize because I have looked all through posts on this forum and you guys really do this on an amazing, professional level really. 
So you had said: 

“If it is four coaches, there's:

a first, second, and two thirds 

and a full brake…

or a first, second, third 

and brake third.”

Can you tell me what the difference is between a full brake and a brake third?

Another thing is, when looking at coaches I see 1st and 3rd class coaches but I never seem to see a “2nd class” coach - would it just look like a 1st or 3rd class with “2”’s on it? Or is it if there’s a 3rd class car after 1st and before another 3rd, then that car is “2nd”? I just can’t figure it out! Lol

Did the GSWR have 6 wheel “composite lavatory (1st/3rd)” coaches? Or was that something that did not come along until after the GSWR? 

And then lastly, were Irish cattle wagons back then the same as British cattle wagons? I’ve found a few used ones but I don’t know if they’re what the GSWR would have used or if they too would need modifications. 
 

Thanks in advance.

Johnny

Edited September 9, 2022 by Johnny B. Good

[jhb171achill]

Hi Johnny!

OK, your questiions: all trains had to cater for 1st, 2nd and 3rd class passengers. Companies in Ireland started abolishing second from 1914 onwards, so that by the GSR era (1925-45) there was only first and third on most lines. The MGWR had already done away with it, but the GSWR kept it to the eamalgamation, but the GSR abolished it everywhere in 1930. If you're modelling in the GSR era after 1930, you won't have to worry about 2nd, nor fiddly liveries, as you'll have plain maroon with simpler lining on coaches and plain grey on locomotives and wagons.

So, they would provide accommodation for each according to deman. On many rural lines, almost nobody travelled first class, whereas third class was the choice of the vast majority; a few bowler-hatted travelling salesmen and better-off farmers would be in 2nd. Therefore, carriage accommodation reflected demand.

Almost never was more than one first class coach needed - even on the main lines. One second usually was enough as well, with as many thirds as needed making up the rest of the train. Most companies had a stock of carriages of each class, so that a branch or secondary line train would typically have one 1st, one 2nd, and one or two 3rd class. However, there were many "composite" coaches, or "compos" as the railwaymen called them. A compo could be part 1st / 2nd, part 1st / 3rd, or even part 2nd / 3rd. A TRI-compo had at least some accommodation for all three classes. There were certainly 1st / 2nd FOUR wheeled compos way back on GSWR lines.

So you might get a line where the powers that be took the view that never in all time would there be enough first class fares to fill more than a compartment or two, so they'd put a compo or tri-compo on that line, with maybe two compartments of each class, and string this along with a couple of thirds.

As far as the van was concerned, this again was adapted for likely use. Most companies had a stock of coaches with a guard's compartment and brake plus a large luggage space, with no seating at all - plus a stock of vehicles with maybe half or a third of the coach given over to the guard and luggage space, and two or three first, second or third class compartments at the other end of the coach. So a coach with guard/luggage at one end, and lets say two 2nd class compartments, would be a "brake 2nd". There were brake 1sts, brake 2nds, brake 3rds - and yes, brake compos; even brake tri-compos, where you've a need on a lightly used branch line for very little passenger seating. They might stick a full 3rd with a brake tricompo, the latter maybe having only onle compartment of each class, plus the brake. So a full brake has no passenger accommodation at all. In GSWR terms, most designs had the guard's compartment in the centre, with double doors for parcels or mailbags either side. A brake 3rd will have one set of double doors, a guard's compartment, plus (with most GSWR designs) either two or three 3rd class compartments.

I must add that in all of the above, I'm referring to six-wheelers, though the precise equivalent (albeit with even MORE variations) was very much the case as the railways changed over to bogie vehicles. All six-wheeled passenger coaches were either non-corridor, or in a very few cases on the MGWR and GSWR, internal-corridor - that is, you could walk up and down a side corridor inside the coach, from one end of its 30ft length to the other, but not from it into the next vehicle.

Now, all of that reprseents a truly bewildering variety, which is actually the best way of illustrating the substantial lack of any standardisation. Within a fleet of only a few hundred vehicles, there could be fifty variations.... so how do we convert that into your model?

The answer is simple, and good news. If you're planning a GSWR layout, you've two choices. One is to spend a lifetime obtaining definitive information on which vehicle ran where, obtaining drawings, making models of each yourself, etc etc etc.... OR, going freelance, which is quicker and cheaper and has no rules to stick to! I see you're doing the latter (you'd need to live to be 120 to do the first), so your four wheelers and various repaints of "old-looking" coaches will make a very satisfactory start.

The GSWR did indeed have "lavatory" coaches. Most were 1st and 2nd, few were 3rd. I guess that 3rd class passengers just had to cross their legs. Toilets were being fitted in carriages on some lines going back to the late 1870s, though in earlier coaches only in 1st class areas. The GSWR introduced their first "lavatory" coaches in 1882, these being 6-wheeled 1st / 2nd compos. No six-wheeled 3rds, even those which lasted into the 1950s, ever had toilets.

Unfortunately for the modeller, there is no British design of cattle wagons which is even remotely close to anything Irish. Most are too long a wheelbase, and all are of utterly different designs. Really you're looking at kits there - while there isn't one of a specifically GSWR design, Provincial Wagons' GNR or SLNCR cattle wagon - inexpensive and very easy to build - is as close to a GSWR design as is necessary for you. With cattle being a very large part of rural railway traffic in all areas and on all lines in the past, cattle trucks are as necessary to create the right scene as a locomotive is to pull a train.

The reason that second class coaches are elusive is that they were disappearing from many lines a century ago and more. The LMS(NCC) was the last company to retain 2nd class, right up to the 1940s.

 

I hope the above is helpful.

[Johnny B. Good]

14 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

Hi Johnny!

OK, your questiions: all trains had to cater for 1st, 2nd and 3rd class passengers. Companies in Ireland started abolishing second from 1914 onwards, so that by the GSR era (1925-45) there was only first and third on most lines. The MGWR had already done away with it, but the GSWR kept it to the eamalgamation, but the GSR abolished it everywhere in 1930. If you're modelling in the GSR era after 1930, you won't have to worry about 2nd, nor fiddly liveries, as you'll have plain maroon with simpler lining on coaches and plain grey on locomotives and wagons.

So, they would provide accommodation for each according to deman. On many rural lines, almost nobody travelled first class, whereas third class was the choice of the vast majority; a few bowler-hatted travelling salesmen and better-off farmers would be in 2nd. Therefore, carriage accommodation reflected demand.

Almost never was more than one first class coach needed - even on the main lines. One second usually was enough as well, with as many thirds as needed making up the rest of the train. Most companies had a stock of carriages of each class, so that a branch or secondary line train would typically have one 1st, one 2nd, and one or two 3rd class. However, there were many "composite" coaches, or "compos" as the railwaymen called them. A compo could be part 1st / 2nd, part 1st / 3rd, or even part 2nd / 3rd. A TRI-compo had at least some accommodation for all three classes. There were certainly 1st / 2nd FOUR wheeled compos way back on GSWR lines.

So you might get a line where the powers that be took the view that never in all time would there be enough first class fares to fill more than a compartment or two, so they'd put a compo or tri-compo on that line, with maybe two compartments of each class, and string this along with a couple of thirds.

As far as the van was concerned, this again was adapted for likely use. Most companies had a stock of coaches with a guard's compartment and brake plus a large luggage space, with no seating at all - plus a stock of vehicles with maybe half or a third of the coach given over to the guard and luggage space, and two or three first, second or third class compartments at the other end of the coach. So a coach with guard/luggage at one end, and lets say two 2nd class compartments, would be a "brake 2nd". There were brake 1sts, brake 2nds, brake 3rds - and yes, brake compos; even brake tri-compos, where you've a need on a lightly used branch line for very little passenger seating. They might stick a full 3rd with a brake tricompo, the latter maybe having only onle compartment of each class, plus the brake. So a full brake has no passenger accommodation at all. In GSWR terms, most designs had the guard's compartment in the centre, with double doors for parcels or mailbags either side. A brake 3rd will have one set of double doors, a guard's compartment, plus (with most GSWR designs) either two or three 3rd class compartments.

I must add that in all of the above, I'm referring to six-wheelers, though the precise equivalent (albeit with even MORE variations) was very much the case as the railways changed over to bogie vehicles. All six-wheeled passenger coaches were either non-corridor, or in a very few cases on the MGWR and GSWR, internal-corridor - that is, you could walk up and down a side corridor inside the coach, from one end of its 30ft length to the other, but not from it into the next vehicle.

Now, all of that reprseents a truly bewildering variety, which is actually the best way of illustrating the substantial lack of any standardisation. Within a fleet of only a few hundred vehicles, there could be fifty variations.... so how do we convert that into your model?

The answer is simple, and good news. If you're planning a GSWR layout, you've two choices. One is to spend a lifetime obtaining definitive information on which vehicle ran where, obtaining drawings, making models of each yourself, etc etc etc.... OR, going freelance, which is quicker and cheaper and has no rules to stick to! I see you're doing the latter (you'd need to live to be 120 to do the first), so your four wheelers and various repaints of "old-looking" coaches will make a very satisfactory start.

The GSWR did indeed have "lavatory" coaches. Most were 1st and 2nd, few were 3rd. I guess that 3rd class passengers just had to cross their legs. Toilets were being fitted in carriages on some lines going back to the late 1870s, though in earlier coaches only in 1st class areas. The GSWR introduced their first "lavatory" coaches in 1882, these being 6-wheeled 1st / 2nd compos. No six-wheeled 3rds, even those which lasted into the 1950s, ever had toilets.

Unfortunately for the modeller, there is no British design of cattle wagons which is even remotely close to anything Irish. Most are too long a wheelbase, and all are of utterly different designs. Really you're looking at kits there - while there isn't one of a specifically GSWR design, Provincial Wagons' GNR or SLNCR cattle wagon - inexpensive and very easy to build - is as close to a GSWR design as is necessary for you. With cattle being a very large part of rural railway traffic in all areas and on all lines in the past, cattle trucks are as necessary to create the right scene as a locomotive is to pull a train.

The reason that second class coaches are elusive is that they were disappearing from many lines a century ago and more. The LMS(NCC) was the last company to retain 2nd class, right up to the 1940s.

 

I hope the above is helpful.

Yes, very helpful thank you.

I just came across these after I had posted and - they’re in crimson lake - would any of these be any good for a GSWR train? 
https://railwaymodels.uk/product-hattons-h4-46pack-501l-pack-of-4-coaches-6bt-4x6cl-6t-6t-in-lms-crimson-lake-with-working-lighting

Edited September 10, 2022 by Johnny B. Good

[Galteemore]

Let’s be realistic here. What I think you want is an atmospheric Irish type layout which conveys an image - rather than being a dead scale replica. If you are using 16.5mm 00 track and adapted English stock then that is absolutely fine and a perfectly valid modelling posture. In that case, the 6w coaches could be a passable GSWR consist (not the 4w). Devote your skills to making an Irish setting with appropriate buildings and scenery and these coaches will look grand. 

Edited September 10, 2022 by Galteemore

[jhb171achill]

5 hours ago, Johnny B. Good said:

Yes, very helpful thank you.

I just came across these after I had posted and - they’re in crimson lake - would any of these be any good for a GSWR train? 
https://railwaymodels.uk/product-hattons-h4-46pack-501l-pack-of-4-coaches-6bt-4x6cl-6t-6t-in-lms-crimson-lake-with-working-lighting

Actually, those are not at all unlike one style of GSWR design! They’re actually the best fit there is of anything ready to run that there is.

And at the equivalent of €155, not too hard on the wallet.

I’m planning to get one of the full brakes myself.

[Johnny B. Good]

14 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

Actually, those are not at all unlike one style of GSWR design! They’re actually the best fit there is of anything ready to run that there is.

And at the equivalent of €155, not too hard on the wallet.

I’m planning to get one of the full brakes myself.

That’s great! Thanks for all your help or I would never have even spotted these when I was surfing the web. 

16 hours ago, Galteemore said:

Let’s be realistic here. What I think you want is an atmospheric Irish type layout which conveys an image - rather than being a dead scale replica. If you are using 16.5mm 00 track and adapted English stock then that is absolutely fine and a perfectly valid modelling posture. In that case, the 6w coaches could be a passable GSWR consist (not the 4w). Devote your skills to making an Irish setting with appropriate buildings and scenery and these coaches will look grand. 

Thanks Galteemore, that’s how I’ll go about it then. 

[Johnny B. Good]

On 10/9/2022 at 4:14 AM, jhb171achill said:

Actually, those are not at all unlike one style of GSWR design! They’re actually the best fit there is of anything ready to run that there is.

And at the equivalent of €155, not too hard on the wallet.

I’m planning to get one of the full brakes myself.

Thanks again everyone for your help. My next question would be track and power. I’m in the U.S. and there’s tons of used HO track out there and I know OO can run on HO but are OO trains compatible with the power systems used by HO trains? 

[leslie10646]

Johnny, I'm pretty sure that the answer is give 'em 12 volts (just like HO) and watch 'em go!

Mind you I was thrown out of the Queens Electrical Engineering department (and never looked back.....)

[Johnny B. Good]

On 18/9/2022 at 5:55 PM, leslie10646 said:

Johnny, I'm pretty sure that the answer is give 'em 12 volts (just like HO) and watch 'em go!

Mind you I was thrown out of the Queens Electrical Engineering department (and never looked back.....)

That sounds good! Lol

[Johnny B. Good]

On 3/9/2022 at 3:15 PM, Westcorkrailway said:

Perhaps number 90 could have been something to pick up?

I’m really sorry I only now just saw this….yes I’d definitely like to get that but do you mean an actual model of it or something similar like this. (I know this isn’t a great example but):

For now I’m trying to do this buying used stuff that’s close but not exact. Though someday I would like to get the authentic models.

Johnny

Edited October 25, 2022 by Johnny B. Good

[Johnny B. Good]

Hi guys, I hope you’re all doing well. My little Kerry railway line is coming along like a loco going up Mt. Brandon lol. Just a quick question since, again, I’m totally clueless…I got the Alphagraphix GSWR canvas van, and put it together and I just wanted to ask (thinking maybe someone here has made these) what kind of under carriage should I use on these? I have a 7 plank wagon which broke off the base and putting the Alphagraphix model on top of that it looks like a perfect fit. So I’m wondering what kit would match that. Do you think this kit would work:

Thanks again for your help,

Johnny