CIE Ballast Wagons, late 1960s to 1980s (not hoppers or flats)

[Mol_PMB]

I’m going to write a series of posts about the dropside open wagons described by CIE as ‘Ballast Wagons’ in the late 1960s to 1980s period. This excludes ballast hoppers and I will also exclude the PWD flat and bolster wagons which were sometimes also referred as ‘Ballast Wagons’ – they may form the subject future research. Some of these wagons carried an unusual red livery in both ‘snail’ and ‘roundel’ eras.

I intend to cover various number series based on a combination of the following sources:

• ‘Irish Railways Today’, by Pender & Richards, 1967.
• ‘Locomotives & Rolling Stock of CIE & NIR’, Doyle & Hirsch Stockbooks, 1979 and 1981 editions.
• CIE ‘Working Time Table’, November 1975, January 1985 and January 1986 editions, which include a listing of wagon types.
• Images in the IRRS photo archive and elsewhere on Flickr and in publications.

The following number series will be considered:

• 8343-8385, built by GSWR
• 8460-8492, probably also GSWR
• 24000-24047, built by GSWR/GSR from 1917
• 24051-24100, built by CIE in 1949
• 24102-24112, 6-wheelers, maybe conversions?
• 24401-24450, converted in 1964/5 from 1953-built cattle wagons
• 24451-24515, converted in 1964/5 from 1953-built cattle wagons

To clarify the type of wagon I’m talking about, here are a few lurking in the corners of photos on Flickr, from Ernie and Jonathan Allen:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishswissernie/43494741444

https://www.flickr.com/photos/152343870@N07/52900024110

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishswissernie/51181975826

Most of the better images of them are on the IRRS Flickr archive and I’ll provide links to those as I discuss each variant.

More later…

Mol

Edited November 25 by Mol_PMB
Added source I had missed off the list

[Mol_PMB]

I'm going to start with the last two groups, converted from cattle wagons. These are the easiest to identify in photos, because they have wooden underframes, whereas all the other types have steel underframes.

Pender & Richards (1967) list these as follows:

• 24401-24450 1964/65 Ballast, 12 tons, 16'11" length over headstocks, ex cattle; with fall doors
• 24451-24515 1964/65 Ballast, 12 tons, 16'11" length over headstocks, ex cattle; no fall doors

'Ballast wagons...the timber-framed wagons are conversions from cattle wagons. They are all finished in the red livery of the Permanent Way Dept.'

 

The 1975 working timetable lists them as one group, and the same data is repeated in the 1985 and 1986 working timetables:

• 24401-24515 Ballast Wagon, 12 tonnes, tare 6 tonnes.

 

Doyle&Hirsch 1979 edition lists them as one group too:

• 24401-24515 Ballast wagon, 12 tons, tare 6 tons, wheelbase 10'0", hand brakes, introduced 1964, converted from 1953 built cattle wagons.

By the 1981 edition, they were still listed but the number series had shrunk to 24412-24499.

Sadly I have presently mislaid my 1987 edition, so I can't check that.

 

Anyway, that's all fairly consistent. Let's look at some photos. Please note that those linked to the IRRS archive will only be visible to IRRS members.

This photo dated 1975 from Jonathan Allen on Flickr should be visible to everyone though. We're looking at the wagon next to the brake van on the right, which appears to be loaded with spoil.

It's a 2-plank dropside with end stakes, on a wooden underframe with long hand brake lever. Large flat fronted axleboxes. Note that the drop side has 4 hinges but only 3 door bangers and 3 corresponding banger plates on the sides.

 

Here's 24514, a wonderful colour portait of the wagon dated 1969, showing its vivid red body and grey underframe. It has a white roundel and very small PWD lettering:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53510417347

 

Here's another quite clear colour photo dated 1970, which shows 24477, again in red livery with roundel and PWD. In this case the solebar is either black or very dark grey. The physical details of the wagon are the same as in the two previous photos. It is carrying a crew mess hut. We can see the number 24477 on the side and end, but it has been crossed out and a new number 360A painted on the solebar and the end.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53570644103

 

Here's a track relaying train in the 1970s, the wagons loaded with sleepers, with 24401 visible as the wagon next to the brake van. This wagon has no sides but it does have 2-plank ends. Pender & Richards noted that some of these wagons had 'fall doors' (dropsides) and some did not, but the wagon numbers with and without sides in the photos are not consistent with their statement. Although it's a colour photo, the livery is rather indeterminate but we can see that the number is painted on the end.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53527762385

In the same photo, the wagon next to the crane with bright red ends but no visible number also appears to have a wooden underframe and is therefore another of this group. The solebar looks to be dark grey or black and may have a white roundel on it as well as the number. We can see that the deck planks are no wider than the solebars.

 

Finally, and perhaps scraping the barrel, I think the nearest wagon visible in this 1969 photo is of this type, because of certain visible details such as the door banger and hinge positions. It does show a useful view of how the open door hangs relative to the floor:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511622884

 

Considering the slightly faded red livery visible on several of these wagons in the 1969/1970 photos, their bodies were probably painted red with white roundels at the time of their conversion from cattle wagons in 1964/5. The underframes may not have been painted at that time, retaining their previous dark grey. Some wagons may have missed out on the red paint, but as yet I haven't seen a colour photo of one of these in grey. The stocklists indicate that some lasted into the 1980s but their numbers were dwindling.

 

[Mol_PMB]

Next I'll look briefly at the 6-wheelers, which were built by the GSWR. I know very little about these, but they are interesting vehicles.

They had one-plank ends with stakes, and the one-plank drop-sides were in two portions.

These wagons had screw couplings and vacuum brakes as well as a handbrake. It appears that the vacuum cylinders acted on clasp brakes on the end wheelsets, while the handbrake acted on the middle wheelset. The long spindly buffers are unusual on a wagon. It is possible they were modified from 6-wheel carriages, or used some aspects of carriage design.

 

Pender & Richards (1967) do not list these, because they only include CIE-built wagons in their listing.

The 1975 working timetable lists them as one group, and the same data is repeated in the 1985 and 1986 working timetables:

• 24102-24112 Ballast Wagon, 10 tonnes, tare 10 tonnes.

The tare weight is considerably more than the 4-wheeled dropside wagons.

Doyle&Hirsch 1979 and 1981 editions do not list them, despite them being listed in the working timetable as late as 1986.

 

I have found three photos so far, all in the IRRS archive. This image from 1969 shows 24103 being rebuilt, with a significant amount of new timber. The parts not renewed show a livery of dark red or bauxite on the sides, and black or dark grey on the chassis:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511646909

Another photo of the same wagon in service in 1972 after its rebuild shows it in a fairly bright red on the sides and ends, with black underframe. Number, PWD lettering and a roundel are in white on the sides:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511646919

The final photo I've found shows just one end of 24112, in a black and white shot:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53498774956

 

Sorry I haven't yet found any photos of these in the public domain.

[Mol_PMB]

We now come to the tricky group, the 4-wheelers with steel underframes. These were basically the same design built by the GSWR through to CIE, with the last batch of 50 in 1949. Number series included the following, but there may have been more:

• 8343-8385, built by GSWR
• 8460-8492, probably also GSWR
• 24000-24047, built by GSWR/GSR from 1917
• 24051-24100, built by CIE in 1949

Pender & Richards (1967) list only the CIE-built wagons (they deliberately exclude earlier stock):

• 24051-24100 1949 Ballast, 12 tons, 16'11" length over headstocks

'Ballast wagons...the 1949 batch of 50 wagons have conventional steel frames...They are all finished in the red livery of the Permanent Way Dept.'

 

The 1975 working timetable lists the following groups; note the different load capacities:

• 8460-8492 Ballast Wagon, 8 tonnes, tare 6 tonnes.
• 8343-8384 Ballast Wagon, 10 tonnes, tare 6 tonnes.
• 24000-24047 Ballast Wagon, 10 tonnes, tare 6 tonnes.
• 24051-24100 Ballast Wagon, 12 tonnes, tare 6 tonnes.

There is either some confusion in the numbering or the early sequences are not entirely open ballast wagons, because 8263/8382 are listed separately as 20 tonne ballast hoppers.

The 1985 and 1986 working timetables list the same groups.

 

Doyle&Hirsch 1979 edition does not list the ballast wagons in the 8000 number series (though some other GSWR wagons in that series are listed). It does list the later wagons, although it appears that the numbers are becoming depleted:

• 24000-24028 Ballast Wagon, 10 tons, tare 6 tons, wheelbase 10'0", hand brakes, introduced 1917.
• 24051-24100 Ballast wagon, 12 tons, tare 6 tons, wheelbase 10'0", hand brakes, introduced 1949.

The 1981 edition has the same details and number series given. Sadly I have presently mislaid my 1987 edition, so I can't check that.

 

There were detail differences between the batches, such as the type of W iron, axlebox and buffer. However, these are details that may change at overhaul so they aren't 100% reliable indicators.

 

From Ernie, the wagon next to the cattle wagon here is a good example of the type, and is seen in 1961. The body of all these is very standard: 4 door hinges and 4 door bangers next to the hinges, 2 shallow planks on sides and ends, and stakes at the ends.

The wagon in the photo above has plain axleguards, so I'm fairly sure it's a GSWR/GSR wagon but I'm not sure which batch it's from.

The photos from Ernie below show two survivors in 1978, one of which appears to be red with black or dark grey underframe, while the other one looks yellowish. I think the red one also has the plain axleguards like the wagon pictured above.

 

Taken in 1968, here's a nice portrait of 8385, one of the 10t capacity GSWR wagons, with the other type of GSWR W-iron. The body is in bauxite-red with flying snail, while the solebars are grey:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511328921

This photo apparently of 8271 dated 1971 looks almost identical, except the wagon is in very poor condition. 8271 is not in the number ranges for this type of wagon listed above.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53510434197

This 1969 photo shows two more very similar wagons, probably from the 10t capacity batch. One appears to have a dirty bauxite body with snail, but the underframe looks more grey. The nearer wagon only just visible is bright red with black underframe:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511304476

In the corner of the photo is another GSWR wagon:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511614390

 

Moving on to the CIE-built versions with 12t capacity, there are definitely two of them in this 1969 photo as their numbers are legible, 24076 and 24078. Their bodies are both in bright red livery with white roundel, while the underframes are dark grey or black. The number is shown on the sides and the ends. The second photo was taken at the same location and shows an alternative view of one of them in the background.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511462853

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511469593

This 1970s photo shows 24054 from above, with its sides dropped:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53527762385

This 1975 photo from Jonathan Allen shows half a wagon on the edge of the photo with a 24xxx number:

 

Other photos featuring this type of wagon, but less identifiable, are as follows:

A rake of 5 in 1966:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53510480877

One in 1978:

A floorless example in 1986:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53509338094

Apparently still in use in 1985 but in poor condition, note pale body and black underframe:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53509335364

 

[Mol_PMB]

Other types of dropside wagons appear in some photos that do not fit into any of the groups described above, and these may be from other CIE/GSR constituents. Here are some example photos:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53510583447

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511622074

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53570466216

...and the more distant one in Ernie's photo that we looked at before:

 

For the steel underframe wagons in the previous post, a model of the SECR 2-plank dropside ballast wagon would be a good starting point. These are available as a kit from Cambrian, and have been made RTR by Rapido, although you'll have to search for them secondhand.

The SECR wagon is the right length but has a 9'6" wheelbase instead of 10'. It's not a perfect match, but it was available in red livery like some of the CIE ones, as well as the more common grey:

 

 

[Mol_PMB]

I'd missed one! I think this may be one of jhb171achill's photos which I downloaded earlier, and then forgot about. This is a super photo of 24048, with the plain axleguards and in all-over bauxite paint with roundel:

This shows some of the details rather more clearly.

[jhb171achill]

Most interesting stuff, Mol. Shows what a bewildering variety of oul relics could be seen comparatively recently - the very last GSWR vehicle (a plough van) having actually lasted into modern IE days.

And I can't remember where I took that photo!

Edited November 26 by jhb171achill

[Mol_PMB]

A couple more photos I've stumbled across while searching for other things...

A panorama of North Wall with tens of thousands of railway sleepers, many loaded onto wagons. There are at least 20 'ballast' wagons in the photo, which mostly appear to be the conversions from cattle wagons, some with sides and some without. They mostly seem to have black underframes and red bodies, though the shades of red are variable from bauxite to pink:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511515508/

A 1950s photo at Inchicore featuring one of the steel-underframe variants, which seems to have had its body planking renewed in unpainted wood:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53509178859/

This isn't a ballast wagon, it's a 'ballast van'. The presence of two of these in the working timetable listings for the 1975-1986 period had been puzzling me - why on earth would they use a van for ballast? Well the answer is that they were vans for people to shovel the ballast. 24803 and 24804 are listed in the 1985 WTT and here is the first of them, a 6-wheeler that looks purpose-built as a PWD mess van:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511314016/

Freshly painted in 1970 in red livery (slightly brownish red but much brighter than normal freight brown) with roundel. Underframe, ends and roof are black. This is probably a good indication of the colour of the dropside wagons before they faded or got dirty.

 

It also appears in this 1965 black and white photo with a snail:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511587200

 

[Mol_PMB]

jhb171achill did better than he remembered in recording these wagons - here's another one I found whilst delving in the catacombs (a wonderful thread!) This is at Heuston in 1977:

24419 is one of the batch converted from cattle wagons; some of these had dropsides and others were built without - this is one of the latter. The chassis is in grey livery with a tiny roundel on the solebar, but the end is red (with the number repeated on the end).

Here's a much-magnified snippet of one of Paddy O'Brien's photos on the IRRS archive (linked in an earlier post) which shows the same type of wagon in the same livery. It also has the tiny roundel on the grey solebar, and the red end.

[Mayner]

Here's an interesting one. I took the photo at Liffey Junction the only one of its type stored out of use with Bulleid Opens and a  27101 series flat following the completion of the DART civil works,

An intermediate stage in CIEs 1960s development of a 20Ft flat wagon for container traffic.  Originally introduced as 25201 Series Flat wagons 11'wb 12T load capacity vacuum brake gear similar to H Vans (handbrake wheel broken off) once used for Guinness (3 container) traffic. Doyle & Hirsch note that 24516-24566 were converted from H Vans in 1973. Typo of discrepency in CIE records?

As Flats these wagons ran in Northern Ireland carrying Guinness and Container traffic to Belfast and both routes to Derry. There is/was a video of a Mogul departing Foyle Road with one of these wagons leading the consist. 

 

[minister_for_hardship]

"This isn't a ballast wagon, it's a 'ballast van'. The presence of two of these in the working timetable listings for the 1975-1986 period had been puzzling me - why on earth would they use a van for ballast? Well the answer is that they were vans for people to shovel the ballast. 24803 and 24804 are listed in the 1985 WTT and here is the first of them, a 6-wheeler that looks purpose-built as a PWD mess van:"

That wouldn't look out of place in Germany, very Continental looking design.

[Mol_PMB]

19 minutes ago, Mayner said:

Here's an interesting one. I took the photo at Liffey Junction the only one of its type stored out of use with Bulleid Opens and a  27101 series flat following the completion of the DART civil works,

An intermediate stage in CIEs 1960s development of a 20Ft flat wagon for container traffic.  Originally introduced as 25201 Series Flat wagons 11'wb 12T load capacity vacuum brake gear similar to H Vans (handbrake wheel broken off) once used for Guinness (3 container) traffic. Doyle & Hirsch note that 24516-24566 were converted from H Vans in 1973. Typo of discrepency in CIE records?

As Flats these wagons ran in Northern Ireland carrying Guinness and Container traffic to Belfast and both routes to Derry. There is/was a video of a Mogul departing Foyle Road with one of these wagons leading the consist. 

 

Ah look, another rabbit-hole for me to dive into! That's a great photo and I had also been puzzling over the reference to conversions from H vans - this is clearly wrong for this batch and I suspect it was a copy and paste error somewhere.

Scaling off the photo confirms the 11' wheelbase if they are 20' over headstocks.

 

Pender&Richards (1967) list the original flats as:

• 25201-25435 Flat, built 1962, 12 ton capacity, 20'0" over headstocks, vacuum brake.

'Nos 25201-25435 are on a conventional-type underframe and are fully vacuum braked. A number are fitted with locating blocks to secure a load of three large Guinness tanks, loaded at the North Wall.'

 

The 1975 WTT lists them as:

• 25201-25435 Flat, 12 tonne capacity, 7 tonnes tare

I have recently acquired a 1978 WTT which doesn't appear to list them at all, nor do the 1985 or 1986 WTTs.

 

Doyle&Hirsch 1978 and 1981 have a photo of 24558 and seem to list some of them as:

• 24516-24566 Ballast wagon, introduced 1973, 12 ton capacity, wheelbase 10', weight 5 tons 7 cwt, hand braked only, converted from covered wagons of 17222 series.

There's a lot wrong in this listing, if they are indeed describing the same wagons. However, the listing in Doyle&Hirsch does tend to lump together different wagons types into groups so maybe some did fit that description and others didn't.

 

Anyway, to the photos! Starting with those in the original number series.

An IRRS photo from the 1960s showing 25208 and two others looking brand new:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511886625

 In Ernie's photo dated 1964, here's one lurking in the dock at Killarney:

Again from Ernie in 1964, one up north with a Guinness Tank:

An IRRS photo showing 25277 loaded with a demountable dropside body in 1966:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53508466241

 

And then in PW use, some in the 245xx series, some in the A series, and other unidentifiable:

Here is jhb171achill's photo of 24565 in use at Portlaoise in 1977/8:

An IRRS photo showing 24556 at Mullingar in 1986:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53509438590

An IRRS photo showing one loaded with a diesel engine at Inchicore in 1970:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511310066

Here are three carrying PWD mess huts and renumbered as 176A, 572A, 578A in 1971:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511746480

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53570644078

Wicklow, 1973, an unidentifiable example:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53569594857

 

That's all I've got.

 

[Mol_PMB]

Whilst searching for E class photos I found this detail shot of the end of a 25201 series flat loaded with Guinness:

[Mol_PMB]

This film shows a variety of these old dropside wagons in use whilst lifting the line through Dungarvan in 1970. Both 4-wheelers (some in red livery) and at least one of the 6-wheelers (freshly painted in grey with roundel) feature in the footage, as well as a nice selection of stealth black diesels and other equipment. Beats watching the same old Christmas movies...