CIE carriages in the 1600 number series

[Mol_PMB]

I’m currently working my way through analysing the CIE 1969 carriage register; the copy I have has been hand-annotated with updates to about 1975. 
It is apparent but not explicitly stated that around 30 CIE-built composite coaches in the 21xx number series were declassified to standards and renumbered in the 16xx series in the early 1970s. Soon after, most were converted into luggage vans or heating vans. 
I wasn’t previously aware of this. The information in the hand-written annotations is not fully complete to trace all the renumberings, though I have worked out 1601-1610, with regard to their previous numbers as composites and later numbers as vans. 
Has anyone got more info on these vehicles, or any photos of carriages carrying 16xx numbers? 
 

[seagoebox]

Irish Railfans News Vol 18, Issue 4 November 1972 page 10 has a report under "Coaching Stock Developments"

[Mol_PMB]

2 minutes ago, seagoebox said:

Irish Railfans News Vol 18, Issue 4 November 1972 page 10 has a report under "Coaching Stock Developments"

Brilliant, thanks. That solves many of the mysteries. I think there were a few more, I’ll check when I get home. 

[seagoebox]

IRN V19 no 1, page 14 continues the story...Feb 1973 

[Mol_PMB]

9 minutes ago, seagoebox said:

IRN V19 no 1, page 14 continues the story...Feb 1973 

Great, many thanks! I obviously need to study IRN.

The reference to the 4000 series numbers in that second clipping is interesting. I've seen photos of some of those which appear to be former GSWR corridor stock. 4043, 4027 and 4036 are visible here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511303071

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511303076

The copy of the CIE carriage register that I have is missing the pages for 'secondary' stock which would have included those vehicles - I guess the pages were removed from the original once all the listed vehicles had been withdrawn. They're still on the contents page though.

I will be sharing all the data in due course, I just want to get my head around it first so I can share it in the most helpful manner.

[flange lubricator]

1 hour ago, Mol_PMB said:

I’m currently working my way through analysing the CIE 1969 carriage register; the copy I have has been hand-annotated with updates to about 1975. 
It is apparent but not explicitly stated that around 30 CIE-built composite coaches in the 21xx number series were declassified to standards and renumbered in the 16xx series in the early 1970s. Soon after, most were converted into luggage vans or heating vans. 
I wasn’t previously aware of this. The information in the hand-written annotations is not fully complete to trace all the renumberings, though I have worked out 1601-1610, with regard to their previous numbers as composites and later numbers as vans. 
Has anyone got more info on these vehicles, or any photos of carriages carrying 16xx numbers? 
 

The only surviving 16xx is 1633 at Dunsandle 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/be216cd1/28063968640

[Mol_PMB]

3 minutes ago, flange lubricator said:

The only surviving 16xx is 1633 at Dunsandle 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/be216cd1/28063968640

Many thanks. There's a lot to learn from the carriage register, but equally a lot of questions posed that can hopefully be solved by reference to other sources. This will keep me busy for a while. Thanks again!

[jhb171achill]

Fascinating stuff!

[BSGSV]

The 4000's were "Secondary Stock" vehicles. These were older vehicles which were previously identified by CIE with an "S" suffix to the number, but which were renumbered in the 4xxx series later. A few GNRI carriages made the 4xxx series which was mainly GSWR and GSR stock.

[BSGSV]

If you haven't encountered this already, this thread may also be of interest: C.I.E. 32XX Conversions

[Mol_PMB]

Many thanks. Now I’ve got the 1961 carriage register with its annotations, as well as the 1969 one and the other various published stock lists, things are starting to make sense and I am able to trace most of the vehicles through their renumberings and conversions. This is all going into a master spreadsheet list. 
 

In some cases, 21xx composites were declassified into 16xx standards, then rebuilt into 25xx vans and then rebuilt again into 32xx steam heat vans, all within a decade. 

I will share my results when complete. 

[jhb171achill]

Invaluable info! Well done.

[BSGSV]

4xxx from IRN 15.4 November 1969

[Mol_PMB]

Just now, BSGSV said:

4xxx from IRN 15.4 November 1969

Wonderful- thanks. I will cross-reference that with the carriage register annotations and I’m sure it will fill some gaps. 
I think there were a few more, later. I’ll check. 

[BSGSV]

16 hours ago, Mol_PMB said:

I think there were a few more, later. I’ll check. 

I thought so too, so I had a read last night. There were another ten, not too long later, but there's no list of them. Two of these were GNR vehicles, but it appears were withdrawn too quickly to receive their numbers. 2491 became 4054 later still, and that's the last 4xxx number I know about.

I have seen some nicce colour photos in the IRRS photos of 4xxx series numbers in a siding in Cork for Cobh services, 4027, 4036, 4043.

[Mol_PMB]

8 minutes ago, BSGSV said:

I thought so too, so I had a read last night. There were another ten, not too long later, but there's no list of them. Two of these were GNR vehicles, but it appears were withdrawn too quickly to receive their numbers. 2491 became 4054 later still, and that's the last 4xxx number I know about.

I have seen some nicce colour photos in the IRRS photos of 4xxx series numbers in a siding in Cork for Cobh services, 4027, 4036, 4043.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511303071

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511303076

Yes, this page posted earlier in the thread and dated Feb 1973 refers to some of these being withdrawn, presumably a cascade of vehicles prompted by the arrival of the Mk2 AC stock:

In the carriage register we have a note that 4054 was an error - it should have been 4045. 

 

 

 

 

[Mol_PMB]

The attached list is what I have got so far on the carriages numbered in the 1600 series.

I have traced 1601 to 1625, and 1631 to 1634. In most cases these numbers weren't carried for long, they were an intermediate stage.

• 1601-1610 were previously open composites (until the year 1969) and later brake standards (from the year 1970).
• 1611-1625 were previously compartment composites (until the year 1972) and later bogie vans (from the year 1973), except 1617 which was older than the rest and was probably just scrapped.
• 1631-1632 were originally compartment composites, then radio studios (until the year 1980); probably withdrawn in the early 1980s without further conversion.
• 1633-1634 were originally compartment composites (until the year 1980); probably withdrawn in the early 1980s without further conversion.

The spreadsheet gives details of previous and subsequent numbers, amongst other info.

I have not found anything on 1626 to 1630, if they existed.

CIE_1600s.xlsx

[Mol_PMB]

On 3/9/2025 at 6:27 PM, BSGSV said:

4xxx from IRN 15.4 November 1969

Having checked this against the annotations in the carriage registers, and filled a couple of gaps in my lists.

It took me a while to find 4012, because carriage 1285 was originally 1142.

As noted above, 2491 was apparently supposed to become 4045 but numbered 4054 in error.

I have not identified 4044 in any lists, nor any higher numbers except 4045 / 4054.

Many of these vehicles were demoted to secondary stock in 1964, but were only renumbered into the 4000s in 1969. Most had been scrapped by 1973.

Sadly the 'secondary stock' pages are missing from the 1969 carriage regiester to confirm this. They were probably discarded by the original owner of the document once they had all been withdrawn.

 

I don't suppose anyone else on the forum has a CIE carriage register tucked away in their archives?