CIE bulk grain vans - a study of the variations

[Mol_PMB]

I'm presently modelling a flour mill so thoughts are turning to the grain deliveries. I'm spoilt for choice really, with IRM producing the CIE design grain hopper, JM Design and now Enda producing the GSR/Ranks design, and Provincial Wagons producing a GNR van that can be converted to their design of grain hopper. I'm intending to have some examples of all of these. Possibly also some grain containers.

Recently I've been looking in more detail at the CIE grain hoppers which were based on the H van design. There are some comments on the forum already about some of the variations of these. I may have answered some questions but uncovered some other queries! I'll jot down my thoughts in this thread.

Pender & Richards (1967) say:

Bulk Grain Wagons. The three groups are conversions from standard wagons, the doors of which have been welded up. They have roof fillers and are of the bottom gravity discharge type. They work over various parts of the system.

Their wagon listing includes:

• ·        23901-23950 [total 50], Bulk Grain introduced 1956. Ex series 17222 vans.
• ·        23967-23996 [total 30], Bulk Grain introduced 1961. Ex series 18862 vans.
• ·        25021-25040 [total 20], Bulk Grain introduced 1963/4. Ex series 18862 vans.

This indicates that all three batches were conversions. The 17222 and 18862 series H vans were very similar, with only subtle details such as the position of worksplates to distinguish them. The 17222 series was introduced in 1953/4 and the 18862 series in 1958/62. All were unfitted, but there were some variations in the arrangement of brake rigging (2 or 4 blocks).

Regarding liveries, all would have been grey originally. The first batch would definitely have carried the flying snail logo. The last batch would have probably had the roundel applied when converted. The middle batch would have been in the transition period but probably carried the snail. From 1970, some received the brown livery with roundel.

 

Irish Railway Models datasheet (2024) says:

Distinguished from standard H vans by the presence of walkways and manholes on the roof, along with bodyside access ladders and an unloading chute on the underside, 56 of these wagons were produced by Inchicore in 1955. However, the level of traffic called for several standard H vans to be converted to bulk grain wagons over the coming years, with 29 being reconstructed in 1961 and a further 20 following in 1964.

The IRM models are numbered as follows:

• ·      Snail livery: 23901 / 23928 / 23934 (i.e. all the 1956 batch)
• ·        Grey roundel livery: 23945 / 23952 / 23956 (i.e. at the end of the 1956 batch)
• ·        Brown roundel livery: 25027 / 25033 / 25039 (i.e. all the 1963/4 batch)

 

Although they tell basically the same story, these two accounts are not entirely consistent in the quantities involved, nor whether the first batch were built new or converted. The number series 23951-23956 is vacant in the Pender & Richards listing so there might have been 56 in the first batch - some of the IRM models are numbered in this extended range.

Looking at photos I have identified a number of detail differences among these bulk grain hoppers. They include:

• Ladders - 0, 1 or 2 per wagon
• Roof catwalks - at least two different styles
• Hopper door release mechanism - at least two types
• Side doors - sealed, or removed and plated over
• Brakes - 2 shoe or 4 shoe handbrakes

In some cases there is a pattern to be discerned, in other cases there are some mysteries!

[Mol_PMB]

This NLI photo is dated 1958 and therefore these vans are definitely from the first batch:

https://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000303852        

• Four vans are visible, all with roofwalks that have continuous planks the full length of the van (not the same as the IRM model).
• Two vans have ladders on the near corner. The other two do not. When the first batch of vans were built, did some vans have ladders and others not? Or did they have just one ladder, and whether we see it depends on the orientation of the van in the photo? This is a question I have not been able to answer definitively. I do think more ladders were added later.
• All the vans have a vertical rib below the middle of the doors, which can be seen quite clearly here including a diagonal brace. There appears to be a handle and a horizontal rod to the chute hatch so I think this is associated with opening the chute door. It's very likely that this arrangement was repeated on both sides, since we can see it on all 4 vans here. (note for comparison: GSR bulk grain vans had a ladder on one side, and the chute door release on the opposite side). 
• All these vans have a 4-shoe brake arrangement, with the brake blocks outboard of the wheels. This arrangement was used on Bulleid triangulated underframes under many types of wagon (corrugated open, H van, flat etc) but was superseded by the 2-shoe arrangement.
• Of these four vans, all retain their side doors but they are now sealed up.
• All the vans have the classic H-van sides with a grid of bolt heads. I believe these were used to secure internal shelving on the H vans, but would be redundant on a grain hopper. In my mind this is circumstantial evidence that the grain hoppers were all converted from H vans, rather than built new. 

This photo probably represents the as-built state of most of the first batch. Some or all may have been modified later.

[Mol_PMB]

I wrote this post yesterday evening and it seems to have vanished. Maybe it didn't submit properly or lost its way during the migration. Never mind, I'll try again. It will probably come out completely differently on the second writing.

 

Let's start with the excellent IRRS photo used by IRM for their grain van promotional material:

This photo is dated 1973 and is also available on the IRRS Flickr site here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53570445956

We can see 6 grain wagons here, from left to right:

1. This seems to be from the first batch in original condition. It has continuous roof catwalks, and the vertical rib below the middle of the doors, as in the NLI photo in my previous post. It has the earlier 'BULK GRAIN WAGON' lettering.
2. This has the roof catwalks in 3 separate sections, as on the IRM models. It is in grey roundel livery branded 'BULK GRAIN'.
3. The IRRS caption tells us this is wagon 23902, and that's consistent with what can be seen in the image. This has the roof catwalks in 3 separate sections, and it does not have the vertical rib below the middle of the doors. Also, it doesn't have any doors. I'll look at this variant in more detail in the next post. It is in brown roundel livery branded 'BULK GRAIN'.
4. This is a former GSR wagon, number 16408, out of scope for this thread.
5. The IRRS caption tells us this is wagon 23993, which would place it in the second batch. It has the simple 2-shoe brakes, and lacks the vertical rib below the middle of the doors. It has the roof catwalks in 3 separate sections. It has the earlier 'BULK GRAIN WAGON' lettering.
6. This has the roof catwalks in 3 separate sections, as on the IRM models. It has the simple 2-shoe brakes, and lacks the vertical rib below the middle of the doors. It is in brown roundel livery branded 'BULK GRAIN'

All 6 wagons have a ladder on the visible side.

 

Another IRRS photo taken on the same occasion appears to show three more grain wagons at the left-hand end of this train, beyond what is visible in the image above:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53569594857

I won't attempt to fully analyse these because the image isn't very clear - the wagons are rather distant and partly concealed by a platform.

One of them does not have a visible ladder; that one also has continuous roof walks and the earlier 'BULK GRAIN WAGON' lettering.

 

[Mol_PMB]

Now, about the absence of doors. 

A photo of Polloxfen's mill in the book 'Rails to the West' shows another grain wagon with the doors absent and the aperture plated over flush with the sides:

This gives quite a different appearance to the wagon - the plating is flush with the sides whereas the doors are proud of the sides. Also, there is a central rib in the middle of the plated area. On this photo you can see the remains of the door hinges either side of the former doorway. This wagon also has the vertical rib below the doors associated with the door operating mechanism. It has simple 2-shoe brakes which may be a modification. We can't see much of the roof but there is obviously a ladder on the near corner. 

The number is partly visible on this wagon at Polloxfen's mill - it ends in 901. Considering the available options of grain wagon numbers, it can only be 23901. 

In the previous post, the wagon with the doors removed and plated was number 23902. 

23901 and 23902 were the first two grain wagons built, so the doorless variant probably represents the original/prototype design. There may have been a few more like this before Inchicore realised it was a lot less work to leave the doors in place and seal them up. 

[Mol_PMB]

Now, remember that some photos show ladders, and some do not. Did some wagons have a ladder on one side only, did they mostly have two ladders, or were there some with no ladders at all? 

Their GSR and GNR predecessors had a ladder on one side, which would seem the minimum sensible provision - two ladders being more convenient but not strictly necessary.

 

Now, let's climb up a ladder and take a closer look at the roof, thanks to the NLI O'Dea collection:

https://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000307165

The photo is undated but likely from the early 1960s based on the liveries in the train behind:

Based on the roof details, there’s no doubt this is a bulk grain van, but it's quite clear that there are no ladders at all!

The roofwalks are the earlier continuous type formed of longitudinal planks rather than the three separate grids on the IRM model. 

[I think there is a GSR or Ranks grain hopper beyond it, that is only just visible, and the third roof hatch we can see is on that wagon]

 

Where was the photographer standing when he took that photo? Well, on top of another grain wagon, and here's another view as that same passenger train passes:

https://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000307164

I can't see any ladders here either. Note that the ladders wrapped round onto the top of the roof so they ought to be visible on both corners of the far wagon if they were fitted.

Maybe the wagon he's standing on was the only one with ladders? Perhaps that's why he chose it?

 

 

Here's a mixed rake from Ernie on Flickr, dated 1959. Between the Ranks grain wagons are three CIE grain wagins which must be from the first batch. They're rather distant but I think two of the three CIE vans have ladders this side (also two of the three Ranks wagons):

 

We can look at a few other photos from the early 1960s. Firstly a couple of IRRS images dated 1961 so these must show the first batch of grain wagons:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53499079254

• Both these vans have a vertical rib below the middle of the doors associated with the hopper opening mechanism.
• Only the distant one has a ladder on the visible side.
• The distant wagon has the 4-shoe brake arrangement (outboard of the wheels) while the nearer one has conventional 2-shoe brakes.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54419498616

This shows two grain vans both with ladders on the visible side.

In conjunction with this one taken on the same occasion, I think the nearer van must have ladders on both sides:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54418637462

 

This photo from Ernie, dated 1964, shows a grain van in the earlier snail livery with the ‘BULK GRAIN WAGON’ lettering. The wagon number is out of shot, but I think this is from the second batch as it lacks the vertical rib below the doors for the chute operating handle. It also has the simple 2-shoe brakes. There is definitely a ladder on this side.

 

This IRRS photo dated 1964 shows one and a half grain vans, both with the ‘BULK GRAIN WAGON’ lettering and what appears to be a snail. They do not have the rib below the doors, and have the simpler brakes, probably from the second batch.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54251543484

 

This undated shot reproduced on IRM is a bit fuzzy in the distance clearly shows the left-hand grain wagon with ladders both sides – alongside another apparently without any ladders. Only an end view like this allows us to count the ladders.

 

I'm not sure if this scan from a book of the same image is any better:

 

So, it seems that as-built, some of these wagons didn't have any ladders at all. Sounds unlikely, but that's what the photos indicate.

Others definitely did have at least one ladder, but in the early years it's hard to find photos that prove they had ladders on both sides.

 

Later on, it seems that ladders were fitted to both sides of most of the CIE grain wagons, based on the proportion of wagons that have ladders visible in photos.

Edited January 3 by Mol_PMB

[Mol_PMB]

Let's look at a few other photos showing these wagons in their later years - mostly the 1970s.

 

This IRRS photo dated 1969 is not from a very useful angle, but with the vertical rib below the doors it is probably from the first batch. The brakes are of the simpler 2-shoe type which may be a modification. There is a ladder on the visible side:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53508956685

Dredging the barrel, this IRR photo shows a pair of bulk grain vans in 1971. Note the roundel used in conjunction with the full ‘BULK GRAIN WAGON’ lettering. Again, there is a ladder on the visible side:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53510426822

 

Here's another view at Ballisodare in 1971. The nearest wagon is a normal H van, but there are two grain wagons in the distance. These definitely have at least one ladder each, possibly two ladders.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511668529

 

This well-known photo of a Ranks grain van has a CIE one adjacent on the right. Note that the end vent has been removed and plated over. I have not seen this modification on other grain wagon photos.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53510435707/

 

After withdrawal, this view from Paul Taylor on Flickr is dated 1975; very arty but not the clearest view of the wagons.

As far as I can make out:

• All the wagons have a ladder on the visible side.
• They all have the later type of discontinuous catwalk on the roof.
• All are in roundel liveries - grey slightly outnumbering brown.
• Note the second from left has unusually large and wide-spaced ‘BULK GRAIN’ lettering.

 

Finally, an IRRS view of grain wagons dumped off the rails after withdrawal:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511272943

As far as I can make out:

• All the wagons have a ladder on the visible side.
• They all have the later type of discontinuous catwalk on the roof.
• All are in roundel liveries - grey slightly outnumbering brown.
• They all have the later simple 2-shoe brake.
• None have the vertical rib below the door for the early-type discharge handle.
• The brown van left-of-centre has no doors and the aperture plated over (look back a couple of posts for more info on this variant)

 

IRRS Journal no.185 (October 2014) includes two excellent colour photos by David Boyle showing mixed freight trains with grain traffic behind the loco. Page 165 and the back cover. The back cover image dated 1969 is the most interesting, and the view is from slightly above the train so it shows the roof detail of the wagons. The train behind A58R comprises:

• Charles Roberts built Tar Bitumen tank
• CIE grain van (appears to be second batch, 2 ladders, continuous roof walk, grey snail livery)
• CIE grain van (appears to be second batch, 2 ladders, continuous roof walk, grey snail livery)
• GSR grain van (non-ladder side facing, grey snail livery)
• GSR grain van (ladder side facing, grey snail livery)
• CIE grain van (possibly third batch, non-continuous roof walk, ladder on near corner but the far corner isn't clear, grey roundel livery?)
• GNR grain van in CIE grey roundel livery, ladder side facing
• CIE grain van (appears to be first batch, 1 ladder on far corner but not on the near corner, continuous roof walk, freshly repainted, grey roundel livery?)
• GSR grain van (ladder side facing, grey roundel livery)
• 3 cattle wagons, the middle one newly repainted in brown livery
• A long string of oil tanks extending out of shot...

The photo does not appear to be on the IRRS Flickr archive.

The GNR grain van in CIE livery is most interesting and begging to be modelled!

 

That's all I've got so far - if you have any more info / photos / videos etc then please feel free to add them to this thread.

 

The IRM models seem to be excellent, accurate representations of the later-built wagons in their 1970s condition. 

As with the cement bubbles, if you want to accurately represent one of the earlier-built wagons, earlier in life, then there are opportunities for modifications. These include:

• Brakes
• Chute discharge mechanism
• Ladders
• Roof catwalks
• Plated side doors

I like all my wagons to be a bit different so I'll probably implement some of these changes in due course.

[cheesy_peas]

Re the original Ranks grain wagons, when did they lose the Ranks Ireland branding? Were they red at some point? Saw a photo of a red version somewhere.

[Mol_PMB]

2 minutes ago, cheesy_peas said:

Re the original Ranks grain wagons, when did they lose the Ranks Ireland branding? Were they red at some point? Saw a photo of a red version somewhere.

Good questions, the answers are a little complicated. In summary the GSR type grain hoppers were in two groups:

• Some built for the GSR, which were railway-owned and went through the grey liveries with logos from GSR to snail to roundel. At least one received CIE brown with roundel in the early 1970s. Numbered from 16401 upwards in the GSWR/GSR/CIE number series.
• Some were built for Ranks, which were privately-owned. They always carried Ranks branding, right through to withdrawal. Until around 1960*, they were painted red, after that they were grey. Numbered from 1 upwards. The lettering layout was similar on both red and grey liveries.

* if you read through the threads linked above you will see different dates quoted. I haven't researched this in detail myself. 

 

This rather poor video capture dated from 1975 (just before they were withdrawn) shows a railway-owned one in CIE brown livery with roundel next to a Ranks one in grey:

 

 

They have been described in some detail on other forum threads so I haven't tried to duplicate that. These links will help:

https://irishrailwaymodeller.com/topic/8658-jm-design-rtr-gsrranks-bulk-grain-and-irish-standard-open-wagons/

https://irishrailwaymodeller.com/topic/11225-some-gswr-locomotives-rolling-stock/#comment-172976

https://irishrailwaymodeller.com/topic/1628-ranks-grain-wagon/#comment-25132

 

 

I am considering a new thread on the GNR grain hoppers which are often overlooked.

[Mol_PMB]

On 3/1/2026 at 10:09 AM, Mol_PMB said:

IRRS Journal no.185 (October 2014) includes two excellent colour photos by David Boyle showing mixed freight trains with grain traffic behind the loco. Page 165 and the back cover. The back cover image dated 1969 is the most interesting, and the view is from slightly above the train so it shows the roof detail of the wagons. The train behind A58R comprises:

• Charles Roberts built Tar Bitumen tank
• CIE grain van (appears to be second batch, 2 ladders, continuous roof walk, grey snail livery)
• CIE grain van (appears to be second batch, 2 ladders, continuous roof walk, grey snail livery)
• GSR grain van (non-ladder side facing, grey snail livery)
• GSR grain van (ladder side facing, grey snail livery)
• CIE grain van (possibly third batch, non-continuous roof walk, ladder on near corner but the far corner isn't clear, grey roundel livery?)
• GNR grain van in CIE grey roundel livery, ladder side facing
• CIE grain van (appears to be first batch, 1 ladder on far corner but not on the near corner, continuous roof walk, freshly repainted, grey roundel livery?)
• GSR grain van (ladder side facing, grey roundel livery)
• 3 cattle wagons, the middle one newly repainted in brown livery
• A long string of oil tanks extending out of shot...

The photo does not appear to be on the IRRS Flickr archive.

The GNR grain van in CIE livery is most interesting and begging to be modelled!

Here's a scan of part of that super image showing the grain vans as described above:

[Mol_PMB]

Going off at a small tangent on the GNR bulk grain vans, because there's one in the train above, #7 in the train. We can see the side with the ladder just to the left of the doors, and a stirrup beneath. It looks freshly painted in CIE light grey with a roundel.

These grain vans appear to have been converted from standard GNR goods vans, 10t to the IRCH pattern. However, there is no mention of them in the GNR wagon diagram book held by the IRRS, and they may have been converted in GNRB days.

 

Here's a view posted on the forum a few years back by GNRi1959. Note the ladder to the left of the door (this was only on one side of the van) as well as the grab rail on the roof.

These vans discharged via small chutes on the side, just visible on the left margin of this photo; there was one each side of the double doors.

 

Here's a view by Des Coakham posted on the forum some years ago by John Mayne, showing them being discharged:

This version is higher-quality but cropped, and appears on the RPSI website:

 

This IRRS view shows the roof hatches clearly, also an advert hoarding on the side opposite the ladder. The grab rail on the other side of the roof is just visible, above the top of the ladder we can't see.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511443526

Another view of the same van:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511610703/

Another GNR van is shown on the edge of this image, posted on this forum some years ago by KIrley. Again, this is the side without the ladder, and it has an advert hoarding (for a different firm compared to the one we saw in the IRRS photo).

Edit: I forgot one. Here's a photo posted by Irish Freight Models over a decade ago, which is of course a Ranks GSR type grain hopper. But just visible on the left is a GNR grain van, with the side planks reskinned. It's definitely GNR with an N suffix, and it's a grain van because the hatch on the roof is visible. 

 

 

Leslie sent me a photo of a very nice model of one of these; I hope to make something similar myself based on one of his GNR 10t kits.

If anyone is aware of more photos of these GNR 4-wheel grain vans I would be very interested to see them.

There were also of course the bogie Guinness grain vans as well, and this RPSI link is well worth a read:

https://www.steamtrainsireland.com/rpsi-collection/52/504-guinness-grain-van

Edited January 5 by Mol_PMB

[Mol_PMB]

This is an extract of the listing for a rather grotty slide currently for sale on eBay. I'm going to try and buy it and see if I can extract any more detail.

The date is 1964 and we can see 23911 freshly repainted, and another in tatty original paint. Beyond them, a clean Ranks hopper.

Both the CIE hoppers have ladders on the visible side, and continuous catwalks. They don't appear to have the vertical rib below the doors (and both have doors). 

Note also the stencilled flying snail - not something represented in the existing commercial transfer ranges.

My impression is that only the nearer wagon carries the 'BULK GRAIN WAGON' lettering.

[Mol_PMB]

I bought the slide, which had a very bad pink colour-cast and had deteriorated somewhat. I've done my best to recover the image and here's a cropped version showing the grain vans which were the main item of interest for me. The date is 1964.

From the original slide we can read the numbers of both CIE grain vans. Both are from the original batch converted in 1956.

23911 has been freshly repainted in grey with white lettering and includes 'BULK GRAIN WAGON' branding.

However, 23903 is in rather tatty original paint which has faded. This does not carry the 'BULK GRAIN WAGON' branding and I have seen other early photos of the first batch of wagons where this lettering is absent.

We saw earlier that the first two wagons converted, 23901 and 23902, had their doors removed and the space plated over. With this photo of 23903 that retains its doors, I think it's reasonable to assume that it was just the first two wagons that had the doors removed. 

 

Also visible is a Ranks hopper, freshly repainted in grey. It's hard to judge but the underframe looks a darker colour, and some other photos indicate that grey Ranks wagons had black underframes.

 

[Mayner]

Photos of Ranks/ex GS Grain Wagons indicate that the paintwork was in quite poor condition by the late 60s/70s apparrently with a lost of rust showing. This was possibly as a result of poor practice/inadequate preparation when the Ranks wagons were repainted from red into grey during the 1960s (post 64? notes on Herbert Richards drawing). A 1930s Railway Magazine artice indicates that the grain wagon superstructure was fabricated in a rust resistant steel. Some railway owned wagons retained their GS paintwork at least into the 1950s solid snail added and GS initials blanked out, which indicates that the existing paintwork was considered adequate from a structural (rust pervention) perspective.  Is possible that on a similar basis CIE may not have bothered to repaint the chassis on some wagons when the hopper bodies of the Ranks wagons were painted grey, CIE always focused on keeping the costs down!

There is a David Murray colour photo of 654 shunting a train which appears to include two dark brown/red bulk grain wagons at Athlone West in June 1961 in Irish Railways in Colour and Second Glance Tom Ferris (Midland Pub) 1995. Its unclear whether the wagons retained their Ranks Ireland lettering but definitely appear to be dark brown/red, interestingly the leading vehicle in the train appears to be an ex-GN Bread/Parcel van in later CIE livery (Leslie once produced a resin model of these vans) ( unfortunately David Murray's photos don't appear to be included in the IRRS Flickr connection)

Its possible CIE may have simply(hopefully)removed grime from the existing red paintwork and treated any rust before re-painting the wagons in (possibly a single coat) of grey, rusty appearance could possibly be as a result of breakdown of grey paintwork or reaction between (rust resistant) steelwork and paintwork as a result of poor paint preparation. Whatever the cause challenging to model!

[jhb171achill]

Courtesy of Barry Carse….

Whatever the rustproofing had been in GSR times, it’s had its day by this stage (early 70s)….

[Mol_PMB]

I wonder whether they were made of cor-ten alloy steel, which was developed in the USA in the 1930 for railroad hopper cars. 
It has found much wider usage today in civil engineering especially bridges.
The idea of cor-ten is that it does not need painting at all, it’s a bit like aluminium in that it forms a self-protecting layer of oxide. Unlike aluminium though, that oxide looks rusty. 

[Mayner]

14 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

Courtesy of Barry Carse….

Whatever the rustproofing had been in GSR times, it’s had its day by this stage (early 70s)….

To be effective unpainted rust resistant/Corten must be exposed to the weather cycles of wet/dry conditions, its possible that the GSR may have selected rust resistant steel to eliminate the requirement to paint the interior of the hopper with a lead based paint (not exactly suitable for the interior of a container transporting a food stuff.

Its possible CIE/Ranks may not have been bothered about the external appearance of its grain hoppers by the late 60s with the growing shift to road transport and the phasing out of wagon load traffic (considered totally un-economic in 1st McKinsey report.

By contrast this former D&H Grain Car now in use on a mid-West Regional road, has not seen a repaint since these cars were introduced in 1974 over 50 years ago.

Finding these cars in almost their as introduced livery on the Red River Valley and Western in Jan 2024 (complete with initials and shields came as a complete surprise. These cars were originally introduced in a bright red paint scheme not unlike the Ranks scheme of the 50s.

The D&H PS-2CD cars had a 4427 Cu Ft capacity approx 60 tons equivalent to 5 Ranks wagons or over 60% of the entire Ranks Irl wagon fleet

 

[Mol_PMB]

On 25/1/2026 at 9:43 AM, Mayner said:

There is a David Murray colour photo of 654 shunting a train which appears to include two dark brown/red bulk grain wagons at Athlone West in June 1961 in Irish Railways in Colour and Second Glance Tom Ferris (Midland Pub) 1995. Its unclear whether the wagons retained their Ranks Ireland lettering but definitely appear to be dark brown/red, interestingly the leading vehicle in the train appears to be an ex-GN Bread/Parcel van in later CIE livery (Leslie once produced a resin model of these vans) ( unfortunately David Murray's photos don't appear to be included in the IRRS Flickr connection)

Many thanks for pointing out that image which I had not studied.

There's an odd pinkish colour cast on that photo though, I'd be wary of judging colours from it and I guess there are plenty of different interpretations possible. I'm not convinced they're red or brown although I agree they are a much darker colour than the 1960s light grey typically used on wagons.

The two grain hoppers appear to have some small lettering to the bottom right of their sides - in the place where CIE would typically put a number. There's no sign of the Ranks lettering or indeed any other lettering or logos, so they could just as easily be GSR/CIE wagons. Perhaps they started as GSR dark grey, got extremely rusty and then just the number has been re-stencilled?

There are a couple of CIE bulk grain vans in the train as well. The traffic could be associated with Ranks at Clara but equally Ballisodare or elsewhere.

Has anyone seen a colour photo of the Ranks wagons in red livery and lettering? 

 

[jhb171achill]

On 26/1/2026 at 4:11 PM, Mol_PMB said:

Many thanks for pointing out that image which I had not studied.

There's an odd pinkish colour cast on that photo though, I'd be wary of judging colours from it and I guess there are plenty of different interpretations possible. I'm not convinced they're red or brown although I agree they are a much darker colour than the 1960s light grey typically used on wagons.

The two grain hoppers appear to have some small lettering to the bottom right of their sides - in the place where CIE would typically put a number. There's no sign of the Ranks lettering or indeed any other lettering or logos, so they could just as easily be GSR/CIE wagons. Perhaps they started as GSR dark grey, got extremely rusty and then just the number has been re-stencilled?

There are a couple of CIE bulk grain vans in the train as well. The traffic could be associated with Ranks at Clara but equally Ballisodare or elsewhere.

Has anyone seen a colour photo of the Ranks wagons in red livery and lettering? 

 

Haven’t seen a colour one, but eyewitnesses say that when new the red was “British letter box red”.

It degenerated darker through the same dirt of encroaching rust as Barry Carse’s pic of a dingy-looking grey one which I posted a while back.

At least one survived to get CIE (actual) brown - but obviously that would have been after 1970 or so.

 

[Mayner]

4 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

At least one survived to get CIE (actual) brown - but obviously that would have been after 1970 or so.

Brian McCann an MRSI member showed me a colour photo of a brown ex-GS grain in relatively good condition taken at Mullingar during the late 70s/early 80s, unfortunately I didn't ask for a copy!

[GSR 800]

On 25/1/2026 at 9:43 AM, Mayner said:

Photos of Ranks/ex GS Grain Wagons indicate that the paintwork was in quite poor condition by the late 60s/70s apparrently with a lost of rust showing. This was possibly as a result of poor practice/inadequate preparation when the Ranks wagons were repainted from red into grey during the 1960s (post 64? notes on Herbert Richards drawing). A 1930s Railway Magazine artice indicates that the grain wagon superstructure was fabricated in a rust resistant steel. Some railway owned wagons retained their GS paintwork at least into the 1950s solid snail added and GS initials blanked out, which indicates that the existing paintwork was considered adequate from a structural (rust pervention) perspective.  Is possible that on a similar basis CIE may not have bothered to repaint the chassis on some wagons when the hopper bodies of the Ranks wagons were painted grey, CIE always focused on keeping the costs down!

There is a David Murray colour photo of 654 shunting a train which appears to include two dark brown/red bulk grain wagons at Athlone West in June 1961 in Irish Railways in Colour and Second Glance Tom Ferris (Midland Pub) 1995. Its unclear whether the wagons retained their Ranks Ireland lettering but definitely appear to be dark brown/red, interestingly the leading vehicle in the train appears to be an ex-GN Bread/Parcel van in later CIE livery (Leslie once produced a resin model of these vans) ( unfortunately David Murray's photos don't appear to be included in the IRRS Flickr connection)

Its possible CIE may have simply(hopefully)removed grime from the existing red paintwork and treated any rust before re-painting the wagons in (possibly a single coat) of grey, rusty appearance could possibly be as a result of breakdown of grey paintwork or reaction between (rust resistant) steelwork and paintwork as a result of poor paint preparation. Whatever the cause challenging to model!

I wouldn't surprise me in the slightest regarding poor paint prep.

I've seen a freshly painted 071 in its nice freight grey livery. Upon closer inspection, the paint had certainly covered everything, including lumps of dirt and filth which hadn't even been cleaned off the bogies!

[jhb171achill]

7 hours ago, Mayner said:

Brian McCann an MRSI member showed me a colour photo of a brown ex-GS grain in relatively good condition taken at Mullingar during the late 70s/early 80s, unfortunately I didn't ask for a copy!

I must have a look. I’ve seen a pic somewhere comparatively recently, when I was researching liveries for these things, but can’t remember where….. In real life, the only ones I ever saw were all grey.

[Mol_PMB]

Yes, I posted a still from a video and an IRRS flickr link showing a brown one in colour at Ardee in the 1970s. Neither great quality images but definitely brown and quite clean.