Speak Now, or Forever.... Public Transport Consultation

[islandbridgejct]

Your chance to air your views about the Phoenix Park tunnel or whatever else grabs your fancy:

 

http://www.nationaltransport.ie/public-consultations/current/

 

(Download the "Integration Implementation Plan 2013-2016" Link.)

 

Given that they're pushing the tunnel and Irish Rail are bucking against it, a few voices in support mightn't go amiss. (Mind you, does it ever make any difference?)

 

 

Alan

[IrishModelRail]

Does anyone know if there are test trains runnning through the tunnel? I filmed two ICRS at Glasnevin Junction today on the Islandbridge Junction line.

 

 

 

I think IÉ should reopen the Broadstone line and have LUAS connection from Broadstone to the City centre as opposed to the BXD line.

That would help release pressure on Connolly and allow for more trains from Heuston. However, I don't think Connolly can cope with trains from the Airport AND Heuston, IÉ will only be able to go with one of the projects.

[thewanderer]

There is a daily Monday to Friday transfer of stock between Heuston and Connolly or Pearse. This is to return 22000's which are due B exam or Engine Exams at Laois Train Care Depot. Drogheda only carry out the A Exam. The set ex Connolly is put on a service ex Heuston and would usually end up at Laois Train Care by end of day or the following day.

 

As for using the tunnel for passenger trains. LUAS would be just as fast into the City. It be a nice to have, but I don't see the benefits of it. (This is my own personal view).

 

Does anyone know if there are test trains runnning through the tunnel? I filmed two ICRS at Glasnevin Junction today on the Islandbridge Junction line.

 

 

 

I think IÉ should reopen the Broadstone line and have LUAS connection from Broadstone to the City centre as opposed to the BXD line.

That would help release pressure on Connolly and allow for more trains from Heuston. However, I don't think Connolly can cope with trains from the Airport AND Heuston, IÉ will only be able to go with one of the projects.

[josefstadt]

I'd have to agree with 'thewanderer'. Routing passenger trains through the Phoenix Park tunnel would have a number of disadvantages:

- a second platform (Plat 9?) would be required on the Glasnevin Jct line as the existing one can only be used by trains from the connolly direction. These platforms would be considerably less suitable from passengers who are travelling to a destination in the Heuston area or those who transfer to bus/Luas at Heuston.

- the journey time from Plat 9 to Connolly/Tara Street would be roughly equal to the time taken to reach the city centre by Luas. The time taken to make ones way from Connolly/Tara St to the city centre would also need to be factored in. Travelling to Pearse and beyond would, I agree, be possibly more attractive if trains ran through to connect with the DART.

- is the proposed terminus for Kildare line trains Spencer Dock or Grand Canal Dock station?

- there would be different destinations for mainline and commuter services from stations such as Kildare and Newbridge, both types of train being used by commuters.

 

In my view a better option, certainly in the short term, would be to beef-up services on the Luas by re-introducing Heuston-Connolly trams during the a.m. and p.m. peak periods.

[IrishModelRail]

Thank you for this information and you're probably right about the Broadstone. It's a pity it's no longer connected.

[Mayner]

I'd have to agree with 'thewanderer'. Routing passenger trains through the Phoenix Park tunnel would have a number of disadvantages:

- a second platform (Plat 9?) would be required on the Glasnevin Jct line as the existing one can only be used by trains from the connolly direction. These platforms would be considerably less suitable from passengers who are travelling to a destination in the Heuston area or those who transfer to bus/Luas at Heuston.

- the journey time from Plat 9 to Connolly/Tara Street would be roughly equal to the time taken to reach the city centre by Luas. The time taken to make ones way from Connolly/Tara St to the city centre would also need to be factored in. Travelling to Pearse and beyond would, I agree, be possibly more attractive if trains ran through to connect with the DART.

- is the proposed terminus for Kildare line trains Spencer Dock or Grand Canal Dock station?

- there would be different destinations for mainline and commuter services from stations such as Kildare and Newbridge, both types of train being used by commuters.

 

In my view a better option, certainly in the short term, would be to beef-up services on the Luas by re-introducing Heuston-Connolly trams during the a.m. and p.m. peak periods.

 

IE/CIE resistance to re-routing South Western Suburban services around to Grand Canal Dock, seems to be more to do with political infighting between CIE & The Department of Transport (NTA) as much as any real issues.

 

Although the route is somewhat roundabout a through service through the Phoenix Park Tunnel to Grand Canal Dock, eliminates potential delay in changing from rail to bus or tram at Heuston and opens up rail as a viable option for people commuting to work in offices in the Pearse Street and Docklands areas and finally integrates Dublins suburban rail services.

 

Despite the equally roundabout route over the Belfast Central Railway diverting Ballymena, Larne and Bangor services into Great Victoria Street had a positive effect on Belfast's rail services.

 

Funnily enough South Western suburban services were originally planned to run between Clondalkin and Pearse/Grand Canal Dock and changed at the last minute to Heuston-Kildare.

 

A lot of the loop line congestion and conflicting moves at Connolly could be eliminated by terminating Drogheda and Dundalk suburban services at Connolly.

 

Perhaps the resistance to the Phoenix Tunnel route is that its success may undermine the case for the Interconnector, the 20 year delay in improving Loop Line (Connolly-Grand Canal-Dock) capacity says a lot about IEs priorities

[StevieB]

The advantage of routing Kildare line services via Phoenix Park tunnel is that passengers do not have to change trains/trams/buses to reach their destination, and people do not like change! Now if Luas had been laid to the Irish standard rather than the European standard gauge, then there would have been the possibility of running both heavy rail and light rail trains on the same track i.e. Tyne & Wear Metro and Sheffield Supertram. Just think how different things could be if main line trains could return to Broadstone and Harcourt Street.

Returning to my first point about change, transport planners do not seem to have caught on to this fact. In the UK there is a huge debate going on about HS2 but people are missing the point that, if you want to travel from Birmingham to Paris, then you will have to change trains, not least because they don't run to/from the same station. St Pancras and Euston may be next door, but you will still have to physically get out of one train, go from one station to then next and then board the second train. But I digress, we were talking about Dublin suburban services!

Stephen

[StevieB]

I've also thought that DART underground was at fault for not offering more through routes. Instead of allowing Northern and Midland line trains to run to both the South Eastern and South Western lines, there would only be two, Northern-South Western and Midland-South Eastern. The Phoenix Park tunnel route would open up South Western-South Eastern route as well. Let's not forget that DART underground is not dead, just delayed!!!

Stephen

[Weshty]

If the alternative is to have nothing in place for 5-10 years, why would you not use something that is already there, as an interim measure?

 

It makes no sense to me at all, and smacks of bureaucratic or politically motivated footdragging.

 

I am completely open to being convinced otherwise, but by jaysus, it better be cogent.

[GM071]

It never ceases to amaze me how poor transport planning and implementation of plans are in Ireland.

 

When you look at the transport network in Dublin (of which I am a regular DART rail user), the system could be fixed or adjusted very easily.

In my view, its not an either / or argument as the NTA or IE would like you to believe between Phoenix Park tunnel or the Interconnector.

 

Frank McDonald (Irish Times Environment Correspondent) suggested several years ago, that the infrastructure for transport in Dublin city could be rectified very easily by filling in the gap in Dargan's original masterpiece of rail planning which we don't use correctly. What he was arguing for was to build the "gap" in the system, or the interconnector (this could be done as discussed through PPP funding and charge the state a long-term loan). In-addition to this, McDonald suggested track realignment works at Heuston to join the Interconnector with the Phoenix Park tunnel (or at least allow trains to to travel both to Kildare and also operate into the Phoenix Park tunnel). Effectively this would mean IE changing its plan for the opening of the interconnector in Inchicore and allowing the opening to rise in the Heuston compound (possibly the car park and track sidings near the liffey).

 

This would allow a new circle line to operate around the existing Dargan line and the new interconnector through the Phoenix Park.

 

This would radically change the movement of people around the city similar to how London's circle line operates. The other radial lines would connect with this at all key junctions so it would allow all routes to be connected and make transport strategy change. You could still run Kildare traffic into the interconnector if IE wished but it would radically change the layout of the system. Obviously electrifying the line and operating DART circle line and on the Maynooth, Kildare and Dunboyne lines would need to be addressed to make the system all DART. The Airport link could still be built from Clongriffen to the Airport connecting everything to one system.

 

The only change to IE's existing proposals would be the tunnel opening in Heuston for the interconnector changing, track realignment works and opening Phoenix Park tunnel. Think of the benefits.........

 

It would allow passengers move from all parts of the city to each other for the first time by rail or within 2 rail movements.

 

You would expect planners to have a master plan and that when we have the money or they can fund it that they would fill in the missing parts. But of course they don't.... All I can say is thank god for Dargan and his engineering excellence.

 

Cheers

GM071

[Barl]

Now if Luas had been laid to the Irish standard rather than the European standard gauge, then there would have been the possibility of running both heavy rail and light rail trains on the same track i.e. Tyne & Wear Metro and Sheffield Supertram. Just think how different things could be if main line trains could return to Broadstone and Harcourt Street

 

Laying the LUAS to Irish gauge to cater for heavy rail, while it could have its benefits, would have lead to much higher costs. Not only do you have to consider the increased size of track foundations and improved load bearing of bridges and support structures, but the trams themselves would have had to be specially built to suit rather than buying an 'off-the-shelf' model as was the case.

 

As for HS2, I saw a good joke about this on Mock the Week where they said wouldn't it just be cheaper to move Birmingham closer to London

[Glenderg]

As for HS2, I saw a good joke about this on Mock the Week where they said wouldn't it just be cheaper to move Birmingham closer to London

 

Ha ha! On a bus run to london in my early twenties stopped there to offload passengers. Saw a turban wearing elderly chap drinking a pint of guinness outside a rough irish pub at ten in the morning. Freaked me out, swore i'd never go back.

 

I agree on the lack of practicality of 5'3" through the city, but the thought of a load of junkies getting squashed by pocket containers at 4am on abbey street makes me chuckle. R.