GSR 90 Class livery?

[Jawfin]

Howdy

 

Out of interest, can anyone confirm the approximate period or livery of this photo of 92? The caption describes it as Inchicore 1932, but it doesn't appear to be wearing an applicabe livery for the period.

On that case, what livery is it wearing? Was it not olive green (which it appears to maybe be in, but that would have meant skipping nearly 30 years worth of liveries - unless the date is wrong, of course), then lined black, then grey? I think it looks rather like 90's Fermoy/Mallow one, minus the loony plates, but was that not, "fictional"?

 

On another note, anyone have any idea on what the cylinder on the roof of the coach section is, or the lump behind it (not the torpedoes, I mean)? Maybe the former was to do with lighting?

And any ideas on the second pipe on the front? I would imagine not for steam heating, I think WR fitted 90's themselves - which itself is very low slung...

 

Thanks

Edited October 23, 2014 by Jawfin

[Noel]

Did she run on gas?

[Mayner]

Did she run on gas?

 

You could be half right the cylinder seems to be part of "Cabs" lighting system. If the date of the photo is correct No.92 seems to have been really well cared for by GSR standards possibly something of a 'pet' engine kept in GSWR line green livery like 184 in the late 1950s-60s.

 

No92 is part of the same family of small locos with carriage portions built by the GSWR including No90. No 90 lost her carriage portion and converted to an 0-6-0 side tank possibly for use on the Fermoy-Mitchelstown line in the early 1900s

[jhb171achill]

The livery shown is GSWR livery - surprisingly clean as this loco / coach "unit" was generally filthy. The loco portion is painted in GSWR green (see 90 on the DCDR) but with black and creamy-coloured lining, the later GSWR style. Numnerplate background is black - the green on 90's on the DCDR is just to put something on it - it should also be black. Numberplates were never green-backed.

 

The coach portion is a very dark maroon, as on the DCDR's 836, with lining in that pattern too.

 

For the record, and for the modeller, the following is a list (off the top of me head) of preserved items that are correct in all aspects of their liveries (and it's a list that really could be longer - education, education and education....):

 

DCDR:

 

90

CSET 1 & 3

E421

E432

146 (apart from later-style numerals)

C231 (apart from numerals a bit too thick in typeface)

A39

G613

G617 (not G611: no G610 class ever ran in green, and in any case the earlier trio that did had green chassis, not black, and no flying snail, larger numerals on cab sides)

Coach 836

The TPO

 

(3223 has a shade of green too dark for the lining which is on it - i.e. post-1955. She actually always ran in black'n'tan in her current format. 728 has the same green - too light for UTA, which is better represented on preserved buses. The straw line on it should also have very thin red edging).

 

I don't include things still in original livery e.g. the BR genny, RB3, the 450 and so on; these are obviously authentic having never been repainted!

 

728, 3223, 1918 and 1097 are not correctly painted, nor are any goods stock. 1918 was painted in an approximation of GSR liver to look "older" but was always CIE green or black'n'tan; thus, the TPO livery would be more appropriate for her, and 3223 could reasonably be made to match.

 

RPSI:

 

171, 85, 4 & 186. (184 and 186 were never black - and another footnote there: when painting a GSWR / GSR or CIE loco grey, wheels and smokebox are also grey, not black. Numberplate background was always grey, not (at all) red as some sources say).

 

461 was done in green to show the CIE passenger livery, though the shade of green is wrong. Correct shade on 800 in Cultra - albeit with incorrect Cultra-inspired "G S" lettering!

 

Also accurate:

Most of the preserved laminates.

Most of the Whitehead wooden stock - except, notably, the ex-diner 87 which is now in the attractive NCC livery; but though an NCC design, it was built by the UTA and was always therefore UTA green prior to NIR days.

The brake van "Ivan" should not have black ironwork or lower chassis, and the cream should be inside the body, not inside the balconies which were always grey.

 

Cultra:

 

As a general rule, nothing painted in Cultra is accurate, but all painted prior to entry there is!

Edited October 23, 2014 by jhb171achill

[jhb171achill]

I'm looking at that photo again - I doubt if it was in 1932 - probably earlier.

 

Having said that, I wouldn't think the GSR ever repainted it. There were several "oddballs" that survived well into the thirties without ever seeing GSR livery: C & L 4.4.0T No. 1, C & L 0.6.4.T No. 9 "King Edward", the magnificent MGWR twelve wheel Director's Saloon (without doubt the most sumptuous Irish passenger coach ever built), the T & D inspection car, the small tank engine 299 based in Albert Quay, one of the surviving Waterford & Tramore 2.2.2WT's, the aforementioned Inchicore-based No. 92 (almost certainly) and so on....

 

Senior, who I visited today, recalls a few carriages in GSWR livery at "Kingsbridge" in the early 30s....

[Mayner]

I'm looking at that photo again - I doubt if it was in 1932 - probably earlier.

 

Having said that, I wouldn't think the GSR ever repainted it. There were several "oddballs" that survived well into the thirties without ever seeing GSR livery: C & L 4.4.0T No. 1, C & L 0.6.4.T No. 9 "King Edward", the magnificent MGWR twelve wheel Director's Saloon (without doubt the most sumptuous Irish passenger coach ever built), the T & D inspection car, the small tank engine 299 based in Albert Quay, one of the surviving Waterford & Tramore 2.2.2WT's, the aforementioned Inchicore-based No. 92 (almost certainly) and so on....

 

Senior, who I visited today, recalls a few carriages in GSWR livery at "Kingsbridge" in the early 30s....

 

With ex-MGWR senior management at the helm and ex-GSWR staff in charge of things mechanical and civil engineering the GSR was very careful with money.

 

Without a commercial need to establish a new brand you would expect that the GSR would only re-paint locos and stock following a heavy overhaul.

 

Locos and carriages built/overhauled in the early 20s probably would not be due for an overhaul until at least 10-12, high quality paintwork from the Edwardian era with multiple layers of varnish would have lasted even longer.

 

While he first Woolwich Mogul 49 was re-painted before the paint had time to dry from lined MGWR livery into grey and re-numbered into the GSWR, its likely that Broadstone would have continued to use up its paint stocks on locos and coaching stock built or overhauled in early GSR days.

 

Both Inchacore and Broadstone were very busy in the mid-1920s as the railways tried to catch up with repair backlog from WW1 and to replace locos and stock destroyed during the Civil War.

 

Both works were busy turning out large modern mixed traffic locomotives and mainline passenger stock. Although the GSR CME was opposed to superheating small locos Broadstone continued its superheating programme for the 19 remaining 650 Class 2-4-0 some of which may have ran in MGWR black into the 1930s.

 

I am not sure if modern paints are better but in New Zealand we have some locos running in freight service that have not seen the inside of a paint shop since the early 90s that are still in reasonable cosmetic condition. Locos that either have a high level of reliability like straight electrics or non turbo diesels tend to put up higher mileage between visits to the works for a heavy overhaul or the paint shop as opposed to turbo-charged diesels.

[minister_for_hardship]

You could be half right the cylinder seems to be part of "Cabs" lighting system. If the date of the photo is correct No.92 seems to have been really well cared for by GSR standards possibly something of a 'pet' engine kept in GSWR line green livery like 184 in the late 1950s-60s.

 

No92 is part of the same family of small locos with carriage portions built by the GSWR including No90. No 90 lost her carriage portion and converted to an 0-6-0 side tank possibly for use on the Fermoy-Mitchelstown line in the early 1900s

 

Probably no space for gas tanks in the normal place for them under the carriage and/or they'd be uncomfortably close to the heat from the firebox! Not much point in electric lighting so illumination is either going to be oil 'pot lamps' or in this case, gas.

 

Notice she has two sets of brake hoses as well.

[jhb171achill]

Very true, Mayner; another factor was the great amount of tine and craftsmanship given to preparing surfaces properly - not always the case nowadays when time is money.

 

The reason the initial GSR coach livery was the dark crimson lake, and that the GSWR's all-over grey spread to all locos, was exactly what you suggest - Inchicore had a large supply of both again the time of the amalgamation, and GSR management took the view that since the GSWR was the largest company by far it was cheaper and took less time to paint the locos and stock of all the other companies in GSWR colours. In fact, the brown and cream for carriages didn't even start appearing until about 1926/7, and even then only appeared on main line stock. Other stock remained the dark shade until the GSR introduced the lighter LMS shade in 1933 when the first "steels" were built.

[Noel]

Weird looking cab/hybrid coach arrangement. Where was the coal stored?

[minister_for_hardship]

Weird looking cab/hybrid coach arrangement. Where was the coal stored?

 

Most likely in two tiny bunkers either side of the firebox.

[jhb171achill]

The coal was in a tiny bunker behind the driver. This can be seen on DCDR's 90.