A few old stationery odds and ends, and labels

[jhb171achill]

A proper cooked dinner in a GSR dining car. Back in the day, this would have set you back three shillings (€0.21c / £0.15).

 

[jhb171achill]

From the catacombs..... at random!

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Junctionmad]

A proper cooked dinner in a GSR dining car. Back in the day, this would have set you back three shillings (€0.21c / £0.15).

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]21364[/ATTACH]

 

A pint of plain in 1940 was a little over a shilling, suggesting that in todays money , that meal costs about 11-14 quid, similar to a carvery lunch today . Mind you disposable incomes were in the order of 30 shilling a week for an average manual wage, making this mean represent about 10% of a weekly wage, whereas today a 12 euro lunch is a far smaller percentage of the minimum wage ( < 2%) and even smaller as compared to the average industrial wage, eating out, on trains or elsewhere was the preserve of the wealthy.

[Noel]

Oh, for days gone bye when edible food was served on our railway services, and we eat off plates using a knife and fork.

[jhb171achill]

From the archives...

 

 

 

 

 

[jhb171achill]

My best memories..... the 17:30 Cork - Kingsbridge with a DCDR-style dining car, a tray with dribbly teapot and a well done stem, potatoes and peas......

[GSR 800]

My best memories..... the 17:30 Cork - Kingsbridge with a DCDR-style dining car, a tray with dribbly teapot and a well done stem, potatoes and peas......

 

[Junctionmad]

Oh, for days gone bye when edible food was served on our railway services, and we eat off plates using a knife and fork.

 

and is was not so long ago, I remember as a lad of 22 , first job, living in dublin , a great treat was the occasional visit to the folks in waterford , by taking the 6:10 pm service from Hueston, into the Mk2 dining car as soon as it opened, and order the "special' , burger, peas, chips, bread, pot of tea, all on monikered crockery. It was a couple of quid from recollection, passed the whole journey to waterford munching away ( usually with extra free bread and tea)

 

 

sadly , Ive never even travelled in a Mk3 carriage , dining car or not .!!! ( well I have in the UK )

 

 

two years ago , I did a 9 hours journey paris to Nice on Le train blue( sleeping cars ) , no dining, food car, nor nothing , oh how standards have slipped , only realised when I saw all the passengers getting "brown bags" at the nearby platform deli...

[jhb171achill]

 

 

 

 

 

 

[jhb171achill]

I suppose some might say of trains (and airlines) that feeding people is not their business; any more than getting people from A to B is a restaurants business!

 

This is unarguable, but a pity nonetheless.

[Weshty]

Mind you disposable incomes were in the order of 30 shilling a week ... eating out, on trains or elsewhere was the preserve of the wealthy.

 

Absolutely. Commodity wise, it's equivalent to €14, but in terms of labour equivalent hours, it's closer to €25.

 

JHB, any price list available there?

[GSR 800]

I suppose some might say of trains (and airlines) that feeding people is not their business; any more than getting people from A to B is a restaurants business!

 

This is unarguable, but a pity nonetheless.

People these days would simply expect a food service of some sort on trains,ships and planes. They do make a profit(usually) from selling food so..

[GSR 800]

Well my point is now pointless..

[Weshty]

I suppose some might say of trains (and airlines) that feeding people is not their business; any more than getting people from A to B is a restaurants business!

 

This is unarguable, but a pity nonetheless.

 

Strategically focus on what you do (i.e. getting people from A to B).

Subcontract services that are not core functionality.

Benefits of reduced costs, more flexibility, less long-term overheads in terms of permanent staff, pensions, admin HR issues etc. Hard, but there you are.

[Junctionmad]

Strategically focus on what you do (i.e. getting people from A to B).

Subcontract services that are not core functionality.

Benefits of reduced costs, more flexibility, less long-term overheads in terms of permanent staff, pensions, admin HR issues etc. Hard, but there you are.

 

Railways introduced dining cars primarily to cater for wealthy clients, since dining car capacity was always a tiny percentage of train occupancy.

Interurban railways cant really compete on getting people from A to B ( where A is there starting destination and B is their final one) Hence why not strive to make the " journey " the experience. This is especially true in Ireland.

 

Subcontract or in-house is merely a matter of overall economics, dining was always seen by railways as a loss leader, but of course a railway in overall profit can have loss leaders!, a overall loss making railway tends to just keep cutting costs irrespective of business case. In effect , interurban railways cannot do a good job of taking you from A to B, a car and a motorway network are way better.

 

funny the victorians, felt you should have on board catering and toilets for 2-3 hour journeys, seemingly today our bodies have obviously changed to not need either.

 

Railways need to compete on offering an attractive alternative to other forms of transport, not simply competing on travel times or cost per say, that battle has been lost.

[Weshty]

Railways introduced dining cars primarily to cater for wealthy clients, since dining car capacity was always a tiny percentage of train occupancy.

Interurban railways cant really compete on getting people from A to B ( where A is there starting destination and B is their final one) Hence why not strive to make the " journey " the experience. This is especially true in Ireland.

 

Subcontract or in-house is merely a matter of overall economics, dining was always seen by railways as a loss leader, but of course a railway in overall profit can have loss leaders!, a overall loss making railway tends to just keep cutting costs irrespective of business case. In effect , interurban railways cannot do a good job of taking you from A to B, a car and a motorway network are way better.

 

funny the victorians, felt you should have on board catering and toilets for 2-3 hour journeys, seemingly today our bodies have obviously changed to not need either.

 

Railways need to compete on offering an attractive alternative to other forms of transport, not simply competing on travel times or cost per say, that battle has been lost.

 

Aspirationally that's lovely Junction, but very far from the reality of the last 40 years.

 

Fergus Finlay recalls a 12 page position paper he worked on for the CIE unions in the 70's where the customer wasn't mentioned once.

 

The motorways have buggered up IR's USP in the last five years. Short of another oil crisis (or developing 125mph working) their intercity offering can't compete with road travel times.

 

The other aspect is that eating habits and etiquette have changed completely. Grazing on the hoof is the new norm, and a meal is no longer a necessity on a sub hour hour journey. Airflight and rail have joined the paradigm that always existed for the bus.

 

 

Secondly, railway travel was never a cheap option, irrespective of meal or not. Alan O Rourke's North Kerry Line has specimen prices in Appendix 1 for 1937 and they are shockingly expensive. A return 3rd class from Limerick to Abbeyfeale was 9 shillings, or.c€75 in earning equivalent today. 3rd class return from Heuston to Newcastlewest was 33 shillings (€500). You could fly one way to New York for the same money today.

Edited November 29, 2015 by Weshty

[jhb171achill]

Regarding such things making a profit.... On the contrary, unfortunately.... having supervised the finances of the RPSI bar and catering operations for some 15 years (and DCDR's lately) had the societ(ies)to pay wages out of the profits, little would be left.

 

Given my own experience in this area, I look at the "Enterprise" and Galway line catering in particular - such as they are - and I doubt if they would do much more than cover costs.

 

Tis the world we live in.

Edited November 29, 2015 by jhb171achill

[Noel]

The Dublin-Cork city gold used to have a decent food service when I used it a lot in the 80s and 90s, as was the dinning carriage. I was stunned to see how bad it is now if you can even call it food. So now instead I use car/motorway because a) it's faster and b) better food on route. I understand some years ago they outsourced the catering. Still decent food available on British, French and German equivalents of 'city gold', but alas no more on the premier route here.

[Weshty]

The Dublin-Cork city gold used to have a decent food service when I used it a lot in the 80s and 90s, as was the dinning carriage. I was stunned to see how bad it is now if you can even call it food. So now instead I use car/motorway because a) it's faster and b) better food on route. I understand some years ago they outsourced the catering. Still decent food available on British, French and German equivalents of 'city gold', but alas no more on the premier route here.

 

The premier route here is 2 hours in time, Blighty and EU mainland would have far longer times and more justification for serving "proper" fare.

[Junctionmad]

The premier route here is 2 hours in time, Blighty and EU mainland would have far longer times and more justification for serving "proper" fare.

 

you miss the point, IE has not improved its economic position simply by running faster trains , IE cant get you to Hueston or your destination at the other end quicker, no use having a 4 hour journey that involves a 2 hour cross city journey to hueston, followed by 1 hour 150mph dash to cork ono a train (* with no catering and toilets) and then another hour getting to your destination by bus or taxi. Rail services in ireland cant compete on travel time and they should stop doing it . Make the journey the destination, make rail travel enjoyable and comfortable, forget about high speeds ( i.e. over 80 mph) . where you have significant travel distances, high speed rail makes good sense, as the on rail travel time , is a greater proportion of the total journey time

 

No point in ireland ,where virtually all traffic spokes into and out of dublin , trying to compete on travel times with high speed motorways and door to door travel by car. IE need to make rail travel attractive , not a bus on steel rails

 

part of that enjoyable travel is proper coaching stock , comfortable seats, ancillary facilities , food, toilets, etc , not a bus with plastic upright setting, packing in " commuters ", such commuters that then abandon rail at the first opportunity

Edited November 29, 2015 by Junctionmad

[jhb171achill]

There's a lot to be said for that, junctionmad...

[jhb171achill]

Staff circular, from the Catacombs..

 

 

 

 

[jhb171achill]

During the 2WW, or "Emergency", despite the south being neutral, certain precautions had to be taken, usually in partnership with neighbouring UK for the mutual benefit of both. Part of this was the blackout and removal of all station names, to assist in confusion of possible foreign spies wandering about Irish soil.

 

From the jhb171 catacombs.

 

 

 

[jhb171achill]

From the catacombs, again!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[jhb171achill]

This'll do ye. I'm on me tea break now, ok?

 

[GSR 800]

Nope, clear out the vaults!

[Noel]

The premier route here is 2 hours in time, Blighty and EU mainland would have far longer times and more justification for serving "proper" fare.

 

Fair comment. But they did it very well for the previous 30 years until they stopped it.

[Noel]

. . . make rail travel enjoyable and comfortable, forget about high speeds . . . IE need to make rail travel attractive , not a bus on steel rails . . . part of that enjoyable travel is proper coaching stock , comfortable seats, ancillary facilities , food, toilets, etc , not a bus with plastic upright setting, packing in " commuters ", such commuters that then abandon rail at the first opportunity

 

I can see your points - We used to use intercity a lot despite the extra door2door time because it was an enjoyable and relaxing part of the trip, but now we rarely use it for the reasons above. It can cost less to fly, and a lot less to drive. I used to love rail journeys.

[josefstadt]

Easier to read:

[josefstadt]

Talking of things catering, remember these: