Courtmacsherry and the Trans Siberian Express

[Andy Cundick]

I've been doing research into Courtmacsherry and in the process noted that the area on the outskirts of Courtmacsherry was known as Siberia now as the line passes through it would that make the trains the trans siberian express(Yes i know express is definitely pushing, but the princple remais)Need get a move on with this layout as its already invited to Warley 2018,what larks! Andy.

[DiveController]

I've been doing research into Courtmacsherry and in the process noted that the area on the outskirts of Courtmacsherry was known as Siberia now as the line passes through it would that make the trains the trans siberian express(Yes i know express is definitely pushing, but the princple remais)Need get a move on with this layout as its already invited to Warley 2018,what larks! Andy.

Trans-Siberian Egress as you leave Courtmac.

Looking forward to it, Andy

[David Holman]

Have often said it is the perfect branch terminus and, especially in 7mm scale is so doable because locos and coaches are all there in the Alphagraphix catalogue. Having visited last summer, am ever more convinced somebody needs to have a go and am sure it is right up your street Andy - whatever the scale.

[jhb171achill]

Have often said it is the perfect branch terminus and, especially in 7mm scale is so doable because locos and coaches are all there in the Alphagraphix catalogue. Having visited last summer, am ever more convinced somebody needs to have a go and am sure it is right up your street Andy - whatever the scale.

 

Perfect for 7mm. Locos - 90, Argadeen and a "C"; a dozen wagons and two or three ancient 45ft bogies....

 

Off topic I know, but I always thought that Fintona or Westport Quay would make ideal track plans for a small terminus.

Edited December 5, 2016 by jhb171achill

[Andy Cundick]

Even better in 4mm,so far theres 552,St Molaga,a "C"Class and the frames of "Argadeen".The original coaches are great fun at 29 feet long,Baseboards and track over Christmas hopefully,Andy.

[jhb171achill]

552, St Molaga AND Argadeen! Wow! Talk about a symphony in grey! Those three alone, let alone the rest, will get a sight to behold.

 

Do you have drawings / plans for the original coaches?

 

Is it set in T & C (CBSCR), GSR or CIE era? Presumably the latter, if a "C" and 552 are involved?

 

(Always thought Argadeen or St M would have been ideal on the DCDR!)

Edited December 5, 2016 by jhb171achill

[Andy Cundick]

The layyout will be 1925-1935,the C is there for light relief one of the few bits of stock from Valencia which is appropriate.As for the original coaches i'm working from the photos and stated dimensions.The real challenge is the original brake which shows up in the background of one picture,the wagons appear to be the same as the Bandon ones of which i have two already 92 louvres between the two of them! Andy.

[jhb171achill]

That will actually be an amazing prototype, Andy. Loads of interesting and very unique stuff there. I will delve into Senior's stuff to see if there's a pic of that van from one of his two visits there. I'm pretty certain there isn't, as he wasn't a prolific photographer, but no harm in looking.

 

Where did you get the carriage drawings, as a matter of interest?

 

I will try to find out for you, if you're interested, what colours the wagons would have been. Most, obviously, would be have been of C B & S C origin. Visiting GSWR ones were either all black or very dark grey at that stage. CBSCR coach livery was olive green, possibly similar to one of the shades the English Southern Railway had at one time, though nothing like CIE green. Lining and lettering on CBSCR stock was yellow.

 

In early GSR days, everything was a very deep maroon, with a distinct brownish tint. Within your period, chocolate and cream appeared but only for main line stock, and certainly nothing that would have gone anywhere near Courtmacsherry! "LMS"-shade maroon only appeared - again on main line only - in 1933, so that wouldn't have been about there until the late 1930s.

 

The CBSCR painted locos the same olive green as coaches, but I have no idea if the aforementioned locos had it. Pre-1925 "St. M" & "Argadeen" may have been black, but obviously after that all was grey. The J26's were never anything other than grey in post-MGWR times.

 

Just an aside - hope it's helpful!

[jhb171achill]

addition......

 

The reason they built, and retained, those very short bogie carriages was that anything and everything six-wheeled wasn't allowed on the branch because of the very sharp curves.... but I'm sure you knew that!

[Andy Cundick]

Thanks for the info,now the coaches are great fun trying to decipher what is what.Colm Creedon states in his Bandon books (No 3 i think)that they had 3 6 wheelers so that is easily discounted, Both Ernie Shepherd and Des Coakham come up with four bogie coaches No1 being a 23 foot bogie third and No 2 a first /third compo,both built in 1889.Then you have No3 a 30foot Compo Brake and No4 a third brake both built in 1892.Now the best two pictures of these are a pair of LGRP photos taken in 1905 one of which is on the front of Lost Railways of County Cork.The 2 coaches are totally different in construction the second coach which i would guess is No2 as it has 2 compartments with a central saloon.The coach behind Argadeen has five equal compartments which suggests an all third no trace of a brake compartment.The same two coaches appear in an article in the Railway Magazine July 1902,,so i guess they must be both T&C stock.The other shot shows a four wheel passenger brake at the end of the goods shed siding.So i would seem they had a passenger brake as well which was probably replaced by the new brake van in 1918.Any thoughts ? Andy.

[jhb171achill]

I'd say your assumptions are likely correct, Andy - though - there was one goods van (No. 5, I think) which remained on the line right until the end.

 

Asyou'll have gathered, Colm Creedon is incorrect when talking about six wheelers. In reality, the bogie stock LOOKED like six wheelers, because they were that sort of size. One was six inches shorter than a typical six wheeler, and another was a whopping 7 ft shorter!

 

Short bogies (45ft) of GSWR origin were also allowed over the line and appeared regularly in the 1950s on excursions.

[jhb171achill]

Just been delving....there was an ancient GSWR goods brake van on the T & C in the 50s. It was no. 8508 and still retained very badly weathered "G S" markings.

[Andy Cundick]

The brake van No5 appears to have been built in 1918,theres a Tim Cramer drawing in New Irish Lines of it.Though judging from photos some of the details on the ends are wrong.I'm assuming the original van expired and this was the replacement,I've built 5 but fancy doing the original for sake of completeness.Andy.

[jhb171achill]

If built in 1918, it would still be T & C stock, so that's maybe it. There was that GSWR one too.

[leslie10646]

Andy

 

First of all, good luck with the project. The "Bandon" was a great favourite of English enthusiasts, who expended miles of film on it in the 1950s and 1960s. I have the collection of one such gent upstairs and will look and see if there's anything which would be of interest!

 

Second, there NEVER was such a thing as the Trans Siberian Express - that name was conjured up by the marketeers of the travel companies. Train No. 1 The "Rossiya" (Russia) leaves Vladivostok each day, just as Train No.2 (same name!) leaves Moscow.

 

I never travelled on the Bandon, but have made FOUR trips on the Trans Sib - TWO by steam all the way (one from Moscow and one from Leningrad)- one reason why I have travelled behind over 70 Russian L Class 2-10-0s.

 

Leslie

[jhb171achill]

Colm Creedon states in his Bandon books (No 3 i think)that they had 3 6 wheelers so that is easily discounted, Both Ernie Shepherd and Des Coakham come up with four bogie coaches No1 being a 23 foot bogie third and No 2 a first /third compo,both built in 1889.Then you have No3 a 30foot Compo Brake and No4 a third brake both built in 1892.Now the best two pictures of these are a pair of LGRP photos taken in 1905 one of which is on the front of Lost Railways of County Cork.The 2 coaches are totally different in construction the second coach which i would guess is No2 as it has 2 compartments with a central saloon.The coach behind Argadeen has five equal compartments which suggests an all third no trace of a brake compartment.The same two coaches appear in an article in the Railway Magazine July 1902,,so i guess they must be both T&C stock.The other shot shows a four wheel passenger brake at the end of the goods shed siding.So i would seem they had a passenger brake as well which was probably replaced by the new brake van in 1918.Any thoughts ? Andy.

 

I'm not sure about a passenger brake as such, Andy. I do know there was at least one old GSWR passenger brake kicking about on the system, and a couple ex-MGWR, but it was a six wheeler and wouldn't have gone over that line. Colm Creedon's work has thrown up a few errors over the years. According to Ray Good, probably the greatest authority on the West Cork system, they used an old T & C goods brake van and this is seen on mixed trains. The details of the bogie stock would seem very much as you observe. As you know, a few of those short bogie vehicles had brake compartments in them, so it is probable that one or other of these was the normal brake power on passenger trains.

[jhb171achill]

 

I never travelled on the Bandon, but have made FOUR trips on the Trans Sib - TWO by steam all the way (one from Moscow and one from Leningrad)- one reason why I have travelled behind over 70 Russian L Class 2-10-0s.

 

Leslie

 

70!!! Wow!!!!

[Andy Cundick]

The published facts on the original stock as such doesn't stack up.Both Ernie Shepherd and Des Coakham state that the two original 23ft coaches were a 3rd and a composite,and 1892 pair were a brake compo and a brake third,which would that for three years they didn't have a brake at all.What is shown in the photo on page47 of Ernie Shepherds Bandon book shows two of the coaches judging from their size and construction i would imagine the first one to be one of the newer vehicles however it appears to be a 5 compt 3rd as al the compts are equally spaced the second one i would judge to be one of the original coaches judging from the vents it woul appear to be a 3rd saloon similar to the Tralee thirds and whats more of similar construction Bristol built perhaps.The clincher is the last vehicle at the end of the goods siding which is obviously a 4whl brake judging from the central twin doors and the single open door at the end.The photo being taken in 1905 the twin is on the front of Lost Railways of Cork .The train makeup would appear to be usual as the same vehicles appear in a article in the Railway Magazine for July 1902 which shows the same vehicles but annoyingly cuts the end of the train off.The useful thing about these photos being pre Cork city line precludes most lines stock from appearing so reducing the options.Andy