Irish freight yards and sidings. Prototypical operation and detailing.

[dave182]

Hi guys!

 

I'm working on a small freight yard for my layout and it will have a short single line off the main, and into a yard that will have 3 or 4 points at most. My period of operation in the 90s so semaphore signaling is still very much in operation.

 

As I look to detail the scene, I've been looking at pictures from around the network and I guess my yard would have similarities to a yard like Barrack Street in Dundalk.

 

So a couple of questions. Regarding access to the yard, I want to place a semaphore junction signal on the main, and then a starter signal coming out of the yard. Is this correct? (I think Barrack Street had colour light signalling.) After that, my yard is only going to have hand operated levers on the points, which is what I can see in the Barrack Street yard. So obviously as trains shunted around the yard, the points were thrown by a man on the ground.

 

So am I correct to think that there is no signal box involved here? Thus no rods to run to points? And no signals of any sort within the yard?

 

I assume the yard would operate as a single 'block'? The signal box say at Dundalk would allow a train access to the yard and then the block becomes occupied. What happens then if more than one loco/train needs access to the yard? I'm thinking that there would also be a call on/shunt signal at the entrance to the yard.

 

I appreciate this is a long winded set of questions, so I'm just looking for some thoughts, comments and maybe experience. What little details can I add (or leave out, e.g. point rods) to make the yard as accurate as possible?

[Glenderg]

The only ground signals I recall is a bay of four or more at limerick junction, beside the loop for the limerick train/Waterford Bay. Certainly had point rods connected, and the place had 2 cabins at the time. I've 2 photo albums here on the forum, they're all in there if they help. R.

[David Holman]

I am certainly no expert on Irish signalling, though am guessing the rules will be the same as in Britain because the origins are the same and firms like Saxby & Farmer supplied equipment on both sides of the water.

Individual levers for yard points would almost certainly be the case and, for me at least, a good way of doing things. You would be following in esteemed company too. The wonderful East Lynn (S scale by Trevor Nunn) is fully signalled, with a proper lever frame hidden in one of the buildings. However, on the quay side, points are operated by local levers 'because that was what the prototype did' to quote Trevor. Had the immense privilege of operating this master piece on a couple of occasions. It is both clever yet simple and a joy to work. East Lynn makes are rare outing at Doncaster next month. Well worth a visit if you are anywhere near.

[Mayner]

CIE/IE use/used a number of different options for controlling the connection between a yard and running line. The connection is usually involves a crossover and head shunt or a set of trap points to protect a passenger carrying line.

 

Signal Cabin control.

Control from a local signal box with mechanically operated points and semaphore signals was the most common up and down the country up to the widespread conversion to CTC.

The GSR/CIE converted a number of Junctions to remote operation from the 1920s onwards. The Junctions between the Burma Road and Sligo Line at Colloney controlled from Ballysodare and Manulla Junction controlled from Balla are good examples of junctions controlled by motor driven points and semaphore signals.

 

Full sized or shunt signals were used depending on the pattern of operation, with a “mother & child”semaphore signals an arriving train would be stopped before entering a yard and the calling on arm of child” signal lowered to allow the train to enter the yard at restricted speed.

Full sized signals were increasingly used for controlling departures from a yard onto the main during the Liner Train era.

Longford was a good example of a yard with full sized departure or starting signals during the Rail Plan 80 era

 

Dundalk South Junction was a more modern example using miniature colour light signals controlled from Dundalk Central. There does not appear to have been a facing connection from the down main to the Barrack St branch, which resulted in interesting shunting movements between Dundalk Central and Barrack St yard.

Ground frame control.

Several yards are/were controlled by ground frames operated by the train crew. Entry to and from the yards at Kildare and Portlaoise are controlled by ground frames released by Connolly CTC, The ground frames at Shelton Abbey sidings on the Rosslare line used to be unlocked by the Rathdrum-Arklow section staff.

Access to and from the yard would be controlled by shunt signals where ground frames are used.

 

Not a freight yard as such Limerick Junction South plenty of discs and trap points.

Sidings were mainly used for attaching/detatching passenger train tail traffic.

Beet Special crossing over from Platform to Down Main

Special propelling back along Down Main to allow Down Passenger to pass from Southbound Platform to Down Line

Disc & calling-on arms lowered for backing move along down main

[dave182]

Ah yes Mayner, I knew you'd step up to this one! Thanks for taking the time to share your knowledge on this. It's amazing, that is one of the most photographed aspects of Limerick junction, yet I've never paid any attention to whats going on at ground level, up to now!

[Junctionmad]

duplicate post

Edited January 5, 2017 by Junctionmad

[Junctionmad]

CIE/IE use/used a number of different options for controlling the connection between a yard and running line. The connection is usually involves a crossover and head shunt or a set of trap points to protect a passenger carrying line.

 

Signal Cabin control.

Control from a local signal box with mechanically operated points and semaphore signals was the most common up and down the country up to the widespread conversion to CTC.

The GSR/CIE converted a number of Junctions to remote operation from the 1920s onwards. The Junctions between the Burma Road and Sligo Line at Colloney controlled from Ballysodare and Manulla Junction controlled from Balla are good examples of junctions controlled by motor driven points and semaphore signals.

 

Full sized or shunt signals were used depending on the pattern of operation, with a “mother & child”semaphore signals an arriving train would be stopped before entering a yard and the calling on arm of child” signal lowered to allow the train to enter the yard at restricted speed.

Full sized signals were increasingly used for controlling departures from a yard onto the main during the Liner Train era.

Longford was a good example of a yard with full sized departure or starting signals during the Rail Plan 80 era

 

Dundalk South Junction was a more modern example using miniature colour light signals controlled from Dundalk Central. There does not appear to have been a facing connection from the down main to the Barrack St branch, which resulted in interesting shunting movements between Dundalk Central and Barrack St yard.

Ground frame control.

Several yards are/were controlled by ground frames operated by the train crew. Entry to and from the yards at Kildare and Portlaoise are controlled by ground frames released by Connolly CTC, The ground frames at Shelton Abbey sidings on the Rosslare line used to be unlocked by the Rathdrum-Arklow section staff.

Access to and from the yard would be controlled by shunt signals where ground frames are used.

 

Not a freight yard as such Limerick Junction South plenty of discs and trap points.

Sidings were mainly used for attaching/detatching passenger train tail traffic.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]26417[/ATTACH]

Beet Special crossing over from Platform to Down Main

[ATTACH=CONFIG]26418[/ATTACH]

Special propelling back along Down Main to allow Down Passenger to pass from Southbound Platform to Down Line

Disc & calling-on arms lowered for backing move along down main

 

 

Nice , and by all means correct me here, I don't think that was a calling on signal though.Its the UP line junction signal. Calling on was a special case where the line ahead of the calling on signal was occupied.

 

The situation of checking a train equivalent to uks rule 39a was used where the line was not clear of obstruction all the way to the destination , in this case the train was " checked" at each stop signal and as it approached the signal was cleared , this would have been used to enter yards and termini as well before approach contro, type signalling was utilised.

 

IN your picture above, signal 4 and the arm below are ( number 6) actually refer to the main up line ( as can be seen from the signal diagram in the South box _) . The main signal was a home signal for the straight through UP line and the dolly referred to the line into the Cork platform . it was situated for sighting reasons as the Up line curves into the station and CIE avoided gantries. The signal diagram clearly shows it does not refer to the line the train is on

 

IN this case whats actually happened is as the beet has cleared the UP line, the signal has been pulled off for an approaching UP train( off scene ) going to the Cork ( i.e. above the station platform and that signal in fact has northing to do with the beet train movement. ( the ground disk is controlling this as its a wrong line movement )

 

Heres the diagram from later fifties, but little had changed from your photo

copyright the O'dea collection , NLI

 

Interesting , where Irish signalling diverged from uk practice was that in Ireland you could pass a red disk at danger if the main signal was pulled off. In the uk the rule was no red light could be passed at any time , so facing discs had to be pulled off. In predominantly single line Ireland , that would have been a mega pain

Edited January 5, 2017 by Junctionmad

[Junctionmad]

Hi guys!

 

I'm working on a small freight yard for my layout and it will have a short single line off the main, and into a yard that will have 3 or 4 points at most. My period of operation in the 90s so semaphore signaling is still very much in operation.

 

As I look to detail the scene, I've been looking at pictures from around the network and I guess my yard would have similarities to a yard like Barrack Street in Dundalk.

 

So a couple of questions. Regarding access to the yard, I want to place a semaphore junction signal on the main, and then a starter signal coming out of the yard. Is this correct? (I think Barrack Street had colour light signalling.) After that, my yard is only going to have hand operated levers on the points, which is what I can see in the Barrack Street yard. So obviously as trains shunted around the yard, the points were thrown by a man on the ground.

 

So am I correct to think that there is no signal box involved here? Thus no rods to run to points? And no signals of any sort within the yard?

 

I assume the yard would operate as a single 'block'? The signal box say at Dundalk would allow a train access to the yard and then the block becomes occupied. What happens then if more than one loco/train needs access to the yard? I'm thinking that there would also be a call on/shunt signal at the entrance to the yard.

 

I appreciate this is a long winded set of questions, so I'm just looking for some thoughts, comments and maybe experience. What little details can I add (or leave out, e.g. point rods) to make the yard as accurate as possible?

 

 

The classic case in my case, would have been the siding into Bell , in the old waterford port. This was a three( or four) lever ground frame ( from memory ) , released electrically or by the token ( I remember a push button on the frame ) from the box at abbey junction, The points inside the container terminal itself were manual operated, but the exit point, facing point lock ( as this was out unto a passenger line ) and exit point (and from memory I think there was a catch point ) were operated from the ground frame. There wasn't any signal

 

 

Hence a typical irish situation , may not actually have any signal to exit the yard , in effect the ground frame operator used hand signals, as the frame could only be unlcoked when the main line was clear.

 

Note that a " starter " signal . is another name for a section entry signal , i.e. a block signal. Many small goods yards had no such specific starter , the name line block entry " starter " or advanced starter , would be cleared once the block was free and the train could then proceed. Equally a junction signal into the yard was typically NOT provided , ( the requirements for freight only lines was much less stringent then passenger lines ) , The driver would simply enter the station and into the yard because drivers were supposed to " know " where they were going !!.

 

Usually the " check trains " rules was used, as the section ahead would not have been cleared for a freight train terminating in a yard, Hence the freight would have been checked at a preceding stop signal ( which did not have to be a junction signal ) . this alerts the driver that there is no clear route.

 

so the most common signalling on small remote sidings , was no signalling at all !

 

of course a yard within station limits and within the allowed pull distance from the box, was controlled directly from the box without an intermediate ground frame , in that regard the frame at LJ was unusual , ( it was solely to control the limerick run round ) and perhaps was that way because it was a " local " movement

Edited January 5, 2017 by Junctionmad

[Junctionmad]

I assume the yard would operate as a single 'block'? The signal box say at Dundalk would allow a train access to the yard and then the block becomes occupied. What happens then if more than one loco/train needs access to the yard? I'm thinking that there would also be a call on/shunt signal at the entrance to the yard.

 

Yard inside Station limits

The term " Block " in signalling is a special terminology and refers to the area outside of " station limits " , running between the last " starter " signal ( typically an advanced starter in later years ) up till the outer home of the box in advance ( and similarly in the rear )

 

If the " yard " was inside the station limits , then it would be controlled by the adjacent signal cabin. typically only the exit point was so controlled and sometimes a ground signal was used or rarely in small yards in ireland, a signal would be used ) .

 

Note that once a train is inside the station limits , and clear of the " clearing point ", the block is now free again . Hence multiple trains can be signalled into a yard , the situation you describe would not occur and no shunt or calling on is needed, The driver would be checked at the proceeding main line signal, and then must approach the yard carefully , being able to stop as required in the event that there is rolling stock on the line.

 

Calling On in my experience in ireland ( or full sized shunt ahead ) was used to signal moves that involved passenger trains ( aka Claremorris ) freight needed far less signalling

 

Yard outside station limits

 

Where the yard or sidings existed outside the station limits and in the " block " section, then a slightly different situation arose ( CIE is later years sometimes stationed a starter signal beyond this point to avoid what I describe next )

 

IN that case where the Electric Train Staff was in use ( i.e. single lines ) , Th train needing to access the yard, picked up the appropriate staff/token and was belled into the block section , the operative then released the frame and performed the shunt. IN this case the block section was occupied for as long as the token was out of the machine and no additional train could be admitted into the section until the token was returned to the box, or the box at the other end of the block section.

 

I think in Ireland as in the UK, however various special cases existed to avoid needing to return the token ( or even take a token in the first place ) , to facilitate busy remote yards ( Bell was one ) and ground frames could be released electrically instead , with no need to posses a token( staff) , however I cant confirm that in effect such moves were not " put on the block ". ( i.e. blocking back outside home signal rule ). There were lots of local rules in semaphore days

Edited January 5, 2017 by Junctionmad

[dave182]

You have my head spinning Junctionmad! But I get the most of what you are saying. Bringing it back to prototypical modelling then, it's a case of less is more when it comes to my yard scene.

 

You talked about points within station limits being controlled by point rods, coming from the signal box. This is obviously dictated by the distance from the box, and the 'pull', which is very interesting. I've never experienced pulling a signal box lever, but most look like you need a good pair of arms on ya! What would be the longest distance you could realistically run point rods? I assume you went along before the start of a shift and greased the bejaysus out of the moving parts to make your life easier!

[Junctionmad]

it's a case of less is more when it comes to my yard scene.

 

yes absolutely , CIE was parsimonious !!, entrance and exit signalling for small yards was rare enough

 

in the UK 350 yards was the max distance allowed for mechanical point rodding , I presume the same figure was inherited here. Signals could be further away , obviously powered devices have no effective distance limit

 

I assume you went along before the start of a shift and greased the bejaysus out of the moving parts to make your life easier!

 

black sticky grease everywhere, I once tried pulling a point and a signal , theres quite a knack to ensure you dont put your back out, the auld timers made it look easy

[Junctionmad]

Heres the aforementioned Bell Lines yard access signal diagram , snippet

 

This was a very busy yard so it warranted considerable signalling

 

 

First thing to notice is the yard is " inside " the Home signal #26 , ( all irish single lines had the distant fixed at caution ) hence the ground frame could be simply released electrically as the train did not need to access the Block to Campile

 

Several Track circuits existed to inform the signalman, and to enforce locking , as the cabin had no little direct sight of the yard. ( Abbey junction was originally set up to control the junction with the New ross line, and the plethora of signalling reflects that .

 

The ground frame , controlled ground disk ( 3) and trap point (5) , Shunt signal (4) on a dolly off the inner home #25 the entrance point(2) to the yard at the east end of the loop, and (1) a release lever, I cant see a (2) so maybe that lever was a spare . SO its a 5 lever ground frame marked at portion "+".

 

The east exit from the loop was controlled directly from the box via signal #21 and associated trap point. ( all lines exiting onto passenger lines would have trap points ).

 

Disk (4) acted in ireland as a " shunt signal " , as opposed to say the ringed signal seen on GWR lines. It was typically mounted up on an associated main signal

 

signals #5 and #7 are " starters " by the way

 

 

 

SO this busy yard , had an exit signal #21 controlled directly from the abby J Cabin, and an alternative exit/entrance controlled by the shunt disc. (4).

 

IN the typical operation as I remember it , the loop stored empty flats and was also used to allow the engine to run around completed liners

 

normally empties would draw forward of the shunt disc, (4) ,the frame released ( a bell signal push button on the frame ) , point (3) thrown, trap point (5) set correct then finally the disc(4) pulled off and the train reversed into the yard . Note the internal point is operated manually as you say.

 

there was no exit signal on the east exit, primarly because the ground frame operator was in visual sight of the driver and the frame could only be released if was safe to exit.

 

signal #21 was controlled directly by the box, firstly because the ground frame was too far away and out of sight and secondly because the loop was used to store trains out of the way of approaching campile /rosslare traffic and released out onto the passenger line when safe by the Abbey Cabin.

 

 

As an aside note that the track west of abbey to waterford central was double track , controlled by Absolute block, the last at the time in the country. Hence traffic from New ross, crossed over to the south line ( i.e. nearest the box), as they was a gradient up to new ross here, the spring points ( in effect a catch point as opposed to a trap point ) , this was to ensure anything running back , would not end up on the wrong line , Abbey cabin , is just west of point#12 at the extreme left of the picture snippet

 

Note that in waterford it was always called BellFerry ( the areas around is known as FerryBank)

 

 

SO heres an example where a degree of signalling was required as it was a busy place, and out of sight of the signalman etc

 

dave

 

copyright Llangollen Signalman

Edited January 5, 2017 by Junctionmad

[Glenderg]

I assume you went along before the start of a shift and greased the bejaysus out of the moving parts to make your life easier!

 

Please elaborate

[Broithe]

black sticky grease everywhere,

In modern times, things updated a bit.

 

 

 

[dave182]

Ah Richie! 12 hour shift all alone pulling on things, gotta make sure you points are lubricated! (although this teflon based stuff is news to me!)

[Glenderg]

12 hours pulling along requires a fair bit of lubrication, I'd imagine, but I don't have the S&M Cert for lineside certification, so I wouldn't know...!