CIE green paint

[popeye]

I want to paint 2 coaches in CIE green. So i need to know is the dark green on the Murphy Models/Bachmann correct.

Or should it be lighter like the coach in The quiet man film?

The 2 pictures are here for you to see the difference.

 

Edited March 1, 2018 by popeye

[jhb171achill]

The green on the far right would be ok for the post-55 green, but with a dash of yellow. Right shade, but a little too "bluish".

[popeye]

So, the story so far, i bought 2 coaches second hand Mainline LMS.

I mixed up some green paint.

42 drops of Brunswick green No 3.

And 2 drops of yellow.

I think it looks close enough.

I got some transfers from Railtec.

I'm not sure if the colour of the snails & numbers is right.

So i would like your opinions please.

 

 

[murrayec]

Hi popeye

The Brunswick green mix looks excellent, but I reckon the decals are to green/blue- they should be green/yellow or yellow/green!

I think I saw a post some time back here about Railtec's colour choice being a bit off on Irish decals- could be wrong though.

jhb should be along soon to take a look- last I heard he was snow modelling a J15 snowman with that 2" of snow that fell on the hills

Eoin

Edited February 28, 2018 by murrayec

[jhb171achill]

The green is pretty good. Coincidentally, I had an exchange of emails with a gentleman who says he can get me the proper code for it, which I will share once I get it.

The "snails" and numerals, if you're asking, are not the right colour - they look quite "blue". The light green can be seen in the photo of John Wayne.

However, and there's always a "however", a fair oul dose of weathering will calm it down to a reasonable level. The numbers are also slightly overscale. The Bachmann coach also had slightly overscale markings.

[jhb171achill]

I would add, a lovely paint job nonetheless, and for a coach of this type, you can get away with no lining if it's based around Cork; in late fifties they turned out some old secondary stock in the older green (as above), two snails as in the older green livery - in other words, exactly as your model!

[popeye]

Thanks, i thought they were a bit blue.

I have to mix paint for the stripes and i will paint over the snails & numbers with the same colour.

[jhb171achill]

Addendum; the coach colour for GSWR was a very dark brownish maroon, rather than green. GSR continued it for a while, before toying with chocolate and cream before settling on a maroon the same as your model initially!

It was CIE who brought in the green. The shade on your model, and surrounding John Wayne, and on the Bachmann thing, was what was used 1945-55. They retained this shade for the few green steam engines, and for buses and lorries, until the 1960s, but carriages and diesel locos started to be repainted a lighter green from 1955.

2 minutes ago, popeye said:

Thanks, i thought they were a bit blue.

I have to mix paint for the stripes and i will paint over the snails & numbers with the same colour.

I thought those "blue" yokes must be transfers.... they're so neat. If you hand painted those, well that's a credit to you - the accuracy of them!

(If a transfer, might be an idea to tactfully tell the maker they're the wrong colour....!)

[popeye]

They are transfers.

It is hard to judge the colour on a web page until you see them on the model against the green paint.

[johnminnitt]

For me too the green looks pretty good.

Is there any other source of eau de nil snails and class numbers, as those seem not to meet with approval?

[Noel]

Lovely paint job. Your results have inspired me to have a go. I have a few on those maroon LMS coaches and never realised the potential for GS&WR use. Thanks for forging the way!

[jhb171achill]

1 hour ago, popeye said:

They are transfers.

It is hard to judge the colour on a web page until you see them on the model against the green paint.

Yes, it is indeed. I went to great pains some years ago to mix green for a Spanish railcar (G scale outdoor railway).

It turned out like CIE green. It should have been way, way, way darker - like in the chassis of an ammonia wagon. The colour wasn't remotely like what it should have been.......

[jhb171achill]

I'm about to put up a post under the heading "Availability of authentic 1945 CIE green", as I have got the codes now.

Edited March 1, 2018 by jhb171achill

[railtec-transfers]

A kind soul has just alerted me to this thread. The topic of eau de nil has certainly been an interesting one over the years. What I can tell you is:

- Those decals on the coach a few posts back will have been made quite some time ago on the previous technology (quite possibly during a period when I was having multiple discussions with several modellers about what shade was correct). Even though the calibration of the camera's colours and graphics cards on everybody's devices will have an impact on how images on web pages are displayed, I agree that they look too turquoise in that image.

However, everything has changed since, particularly with the upgrade to some colossal technology which:

- Has more nuances of colour shade than any modeller would want. Just as an example, all colours in the attached image are different. It's one of several dozen test sheets that get used on a daily basis.

- Prints true white rather than a paler shade of white.

- Spot prints decals so that the carrier film is only present where it needs to be (or filmless in instances where there doesn't need to be any at all).

Noted a comment further back regarding a question over Railtec colours for Irish decals. Would be interested to get a PM about this from the source. If this has been the case then it's much easier to resolve any issue if I know about it first-hand rather than wait for me to possibly see it on a forum (I can't monitor them all). If it was misunderstood out of context or the original comment was made for a different reason then all info welcomed. If something ever isn't right then I want to get it right for you. This is your hobby afterall.

With specific regard to the coach, the product page below is perhaps about as accurate a representation that I can get to the eau de nil that I now make:

http://www.railtec-models.com/showitem.php?id=1205

As for the sizes of markings, if memory serves I think they were originally taken from a Bachmann vehicle. If the numerals need to change then I'm all ears.

[popeye]

Thanks for that Steve.

As i said before judging the colours on a computer screen is impossible, so it's

only when you are holding them that you can see the correct colour.

Eau de nil is a hard colour to match but i will mix my own paint and see how it turns out. 

[railtec-transfers]

I've taken the opportunity to make a series of tests, and if it's ok with the moderator(s) and topic poster, invite feedback to hopefully help steer us all towards a majority verdict on what we think is the most suitable colour match for the transfers to suit this livery. As mentioned, there will be a minor variation in the way your own screens interpret the colours in the image vs the actual physical print I have in front of me, but hopefully this will get us pretty close to where we need to be. I've had to do some playing around with the RAW image to get the screen colours as good a match as I can to the physical print.

The blocks of colours have been placed onto card which has been sprayed brunswick green, which should be a good match for the carriage. At least it should be sufficient enough to show the variations in colours for this exercise. Assuming the colour we're trying to match is the very pale green above the gentleman's cap in the Quiet Man film photo, I have a personal choice but am interested to hear others' thoughts...?

Edited March 1, 2018 by railtec-transfers

[popeye]

Here are 3 pictures of Eau de nil green.

This might help you choose the correct colour.

[railtec-transfers]

To my eye, the shade of the snail is quite different to that of the Quiet Man film photo. Which one is it we're trying to match?

[popeye]

This is the problem Steve, every picture you look at it's a different shade.

I think on the BS chart it's somewhere between 216 & 217.

[johnminnitt]

9 minutes ago, railtec-transfers said:

To my eye, the shade of the snail is quite different to that of the Quiet Man film photo. Which one is it we're trying to match?

I agree, that snail looks (to my little eye) noticeably darker than the Quiet Man pic, or the snail in Mr Achill's symbol.

On your examples I quite like the second from the left, top row, block C.

I would suggest that if unsure, as one can hardly help being when the shade seems to vary so much, it's better to go paler than darker - paint would surely not remain the 'paintshop' shade for very long and would be more likely to fade rather than darken?

[murrayec]

Hi Guys

Standardisation is the key, the photos are all different depending on the lighting, angle, film or digital!

We should stick to the BS 381C Standard, as this paint is ready available and will be the same all the time, I have pasted the 216 into Steve's snail sheet using the same colour pallet in photoshop which gives a comparison to work with;-

I would stay with this ref and not alter it, so later when we go back to buy paint it will be the same

I would also suggest, If Steve can print white first and then print 216 on top a better colour representation should be achieved, not sure if his printer is able to do this?

Edit;- Eau De Nil snails should have a gold line around the edges, this can be achieved with a deep yellow  BS 381C 356 and very thin!

Eoin

 

 

Edited March 1, 2018 by murrayec

[murrayec]

Borrowed from JHB's post

and adjusted to colour balance the dark green as there is a lot of reflection going on, then pasted in 216 with the gold line left intact;-

Eoin

 

[popeye]

That's pretty close.

It's hard for me to judge on my screen because it's crap.  

[railtec-transfers]

Thanks for the posts - this is really useful. So just to back up a sec and make sure I'm understanding this correctly: we're all talking about the colour of the transfers as opposed to the vehicle body? Just the comment re the buying of paint, i.e. obviously we don't want to make the transfers the same colour as the paint.

The colour samples I showed above have white beneath. If they didn't those colour boxes would just disappear into the green and you wouldn't be able to see them at all. The printer looks like it came out of NASA and can do various forms of white beneath, with or overlay, but I won't bore anyone with all that! It could print a gold outline although I'd challenge anyone to be able to see it if printed at true scale. For it to perhaps be visible I'd need to thicken the outline which would, strictly speaking, make it incorrect if scaled up, but as is so often the case with this hobby, it's what looks right rather than what may be scale correctness.

 

In the past few posts I'm seeing what I think may be 4 different shades of what I understand would be feasible for the transfers. What concerns me is that if 216 is the "standard", the images of the real-life examples seem to be quite different. 216 seems to be several shades darker.

[jhb171achill]

2 hours ago, railtec-transfers said:

To my eye, the shade of the snail is quite different to that of the Quiet Man film photo. Which one is it we're trying to match?

Shows the difference in photos. Its the exact same transfer on the sides of carriages in the film, as on the board shown above. As others say, it's not easy to judge these things on a computer screen. The "Quiet Man" was filmed under floodlights; this actually (to my eye) makes the main body green somewhat brighter - but a newly painted carriage would, like a newly painted anything, look brighter.

Looking at the above, and bearing in mind the vagaries of computer screens, Eoin's enhancement looks pretty good - though if I may split hairs (and I know this could descend into tiresome minutae!), something between that railtec transfer above, and the shade shown up of Eoin's enhancement, seems to fit both my own (vivid) recollection, and photos, including of the board above.

I would add, in relation to the board, it hung on jhbSenior's wall all through my childhood and until a few years ago. Thus, I saw it in daylight, artificial light, bright, sunny, dark and gloomy conditions, so it's sort of ingrained in what little grey matter I have left......! It now adorns the wall of headhunter's Railway Museum in Enniskillen, along with much of the rest of his collection. Many, though by no means all, of the other coats of arms etc that are on display there are mounted on boards painted with the actual paint of the railway concerned, and two or three are actually cut out of coach sides. So for livery freaks like me, there is much information to be had on Headhunters' walls....

2 hours ago, railtec-transfers said:

 

To my eye, and given the restrictions of computering screens, the best matches seem to be all on the top row, as follows:

Best - the extreme end, i.e. top right, or the one to the left of it.  Passable maybe - middle of the third lot (n175 C).

[johnminnitt]

Am I right in thinking not all EDN snails were lined, not I think when they're on goods stock and NG coaches?

If so, even if you do produce lined ones Steve please keep unlined ones going too.

Different screens, different perceptions make this a bit imprecise. To my eye the 216 Eoin pasted into Steve's transfers looks a bit darker than the 216 pasted into the large snail, and the EDN above John Wayne's head looks lighter than most shades suggested later.

Still, as has been said many times about livery paints,  first they were quite possibly not always mixed exactly the same, the shade would change with weather, dirt, sunlight once in use, and isn't it true that a colour seen close up is not the same when seen from some distance, as models effectively are. So do we want the 'officia'l shade as new, a bit used, seen from six inches or 200 yards?

Edited March 1, 2018 by johnminnitt

[murrayec]

3 hours ago, railtec-transfers said:

 Just the comment re the buying of paint, i.e. obviously we don't want to make the transfers the same colour as the paint.

In the past few posts I'm seeing what I think may be 4 different shades of what I understand would be feasible for the transfers. What concerns me is that if 216 is the "standard", the images of the real-life examples seem to be quite different. 216 seems to be several shades darker.

Hi Steve

When referring to buying paint, I mean the 216 colour- as 216 colour lines have to be painted above the doors and sometimes under, so this needs to match your decals. Unless you were to print lines also on the decal sheet, which would be an extra boon for us! because if you look close there is a pinstripe under the heavy line which is hard to paint on?

Also as pointed out above some snails did not have the gold line- options!

Regarding all the different shades referenced;-

jonminnitt's post above hits the nail straight on the head;-  " first they were quite possibly not always mixed exactly the same, the shade would change with weather, dirt, sunlight once in use, and isn't it true that a colour seen close up is not the same when seen from some distance, as models effectively are. So do we want the 'officia'l shade as new, a bit used, seen from six inches or 200 yards" -

I see no problem with 216 and am quite happy to work with it, again standardising with a reference code I believe is crucial, otherwise its hit n miss....

Eoin

 

 

 

 

[murrayec]

The colours on top of one of Glenderg's adjusted frames from the movie, this also shows the stripes above and below the windows

Eoin

[jhb171achill]

5 hours ago, johnminnitt said:

Am I right in thinking not all EDN snails were lined, not I think when they're on goods stock and NG coaches?

Correct. Lined ones on tenders of steam engines,* buses, road lorries, all carriages in older dark green, and some in the lighter post-55 green. Unlined on other lighter green coaches, and painted (smaller) on wagons prior to about 1955-ish; light green before that date, white after.

Narrow gauge - West Clare generally no snails at all, but certainly in later years where present (and that was few!) unlined. The C & L had both lined and unlined.

(*  Note: Beware the incorrect tender "snails"; they were never, ever white, yellow, cream or gold! The short-lived RPSI yellow snails on 461 and 184 in the 1990s were entirely incorrect. It's the cabside numerals that were pale yellow only...)

Quote

If so, even if you do produce lined ones Steve please keep unlined ones going too.

Different screens, different perceptions make this a bit imprecise. To my eye the 216 Eoin pasted into Steve's transfers looks a bit darker than the 216 pasted into the large snail, and the EDN above John Wayne's head looks lighter than most shades suggested later.

Yes. I do think, given all the posts above, that differing computer screens among all of us make online comparisons unreliable.

Quote

Still, as has been said many times about livery paints,  first they were quite possibly not always mixed exactly the same, the shade would change with weather, dirt, sunlight once in use, and isn't it true that a colour seen close up is not the same when seen from some distance, as models effectively are. So do we want the 'officia'l shade as new, a bit used, seen from six inches or 200 yards?

To an extent. Initially done, they were all the same as paints were mixed with accuracy, and if we are looking at "snails", they were all standard transfers from Tearnes of Birmingham. Different lighting and wear and tear can make colours look "flatter" as some pigments fade quicker than others. 

Again, I think the solution to this will be a field visit, and again I would offer that if anyone here can match accurately from an actual example I can lend a suitable actual paint sample.

 

Edited March 2, 2018 by jhb171achill

[johnminnitt]

8 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

To an extent. Initially done, they were all the same as paints were mixed with accuracy, and if we are looking at "snails", they were all standard transfers from Tearnes of Birmingham. Different lighting and wear and tear can make colours look "flatter" as some pigments fade quicker than others. 

Again, I think the solution to this will be a field visit, and again I would offer that if anyone here can match accurately from an actual example I can lend a suitable actual paint sample.

 

Yes, sorry, I was thinking back to the green paint question when talking about ,mixing.

Still I think the other points are relevant to the snails. I also think your word 'flatter' is well chosen, too bright a colour can look wrong even if technically correct - who ever saw a railway with every vehicle fresh from the paint shop? Weathering a bright colour helps but maybe isn't quite the same as fading. In the past I have read of people toning down full-strength colours with a little pale tan/grey for that effect (done it myself with 'official' GW green). Still it's probably asking a bit much for suppliers to produce transfers in 'fresh' and 'faded' shades. It would be nice though.

Tearnes seem to exist still, I don't suppose they still have any relevant records.

Edited March 2, 2018 by johnminnitt

[murrayec]

Hi guys

Furthering on the EDN colour, I've gone through the standard RAL & BS 4800 colours and come up with this!

The EDN colour on the right is from BS 4800 colours- this range is more common and available in all paint stores, one range is 'Dulux Trade' which is called something new now! (it's an old Dulux brochure I have- but the BS reference will not have changed)

BS 14 C 35 is called 'Braemar' by Dulux and 'Iceplant Green' by others- in photoshop it's pretty close though??

There is not a green like 226 in the standard BS 4800 colours- the closest is BS 14 C 39 but leans towards the blue side!

Eoin

 

Edited March 2, 2018 by murrayec

[johnminnitt]

The colours on the right look pretty close to the film still to me.

[railtec-transfers]

Thanks for the info. So am I correct in thinking, at least for this variety of passenger stock:

- The snails need to be as close to 216 as I can make them, with a thin gold outline;

- The numerals, upper body line and mid-body line (with accompanying pinstripes) need to be 14C35?

Certainly in that last image, the snail appears to be of different colour (216) than the numerals and body stripes (14C35). If the general conclusion is as above, I'm happy to work with that and can make some more tests. Once we've got that nailed, we can move on to sizes and quantities. May as well go the whole hog and make sure everything is bang on.

[johnminnitt]

Surely snails, lines and numbers should be the same shade?

It's always looked that way to me, but which of the two above is better seems to vary with which photo you look at, what computer you look with and the state/age of the vehicle's paint job?

 

Edited March 2, 2018 by johnminnitt

[murrayec]

Hi Steve

With the last image I posted, I reckon hold off on doing anything until we see comments back over a few days!

After doing this exercise this morning my preference is now for 14 C 35 on all the EDN colour- lined snail, unlined snail, and the body stripes- and not use 216 at all.

On the lining;-

I'm sure you thought of it- the lines could be in short lengths to make it easier to apply, and the below window line goes through the door handles- I can give you dimensions for this off a SSM 6 wheeler kit if you require?

Eoin

 

[murrayec]

8 minutes ago, johnminnitt said:

Surely snails, lines and numbers should be the same shade?

It's always looked that way to me, but which of the two above is better seems to vary with which photo you look at, what computer you look with and the state/age of the vehicle's paint job?

 

Hi johnminnitt

They are the same, I gave the image as for comparison right or left, one or other, but not mixing them

In setting up the samples I used the movie image to extract the colour of the snail/stripe and then used the same palate of colours to select the closest match to the BS colour cards- 14 C 35 comes the closest for that image- if you have an other image your referring to post it up and I'll do the same process to it

Eoin