Which 101/J15?

[David Holman]

Here's a challenge for you.

 Am due to start the 7mm scale TDM J15 kit, I bought from the Richard Chown estate. Trouble is, which one and what period? Realise the answer may be difficult, but the parameters are as follows:

1. I rather like the sloping front/double smokebox doors.

2. The 4'4" boiler is my preferred type, certainly not the Z, Belpair, extended smokebox types

3. In livery terms, battleship grey is a complete no! Therefore, plain black, or could be persuaded to do lining at a push. Dirt, weathering not a problem.

4. Period therefore seems either pre 1919, or much later, with a covering of grime.

5. A view of the cab, especially the blackhead, would be very useful.

6. Ideally, a loco known to work the Burmah Road to Sligo, fitting all the above, would be perfect!!!

 So, not much then and am prepared to face up to the fact that not all the above can be met. So far, I have the Steaming in Three Centuries book, plus the GSR locos tome. My WL&W history shows a picture of 170 in 1938 entering Limerick, with a train from Sligo and it has the right smokebox. The table in the 101 book shows it got a Z boiler in 1941 though. Meanwhile in that book is a picture of  121 at Sligo in 1955, which covers most aspects, but has the later smokebox door...

 So, you can see my problems!

 Any thought welcome. Thanking you all, in anticipation...

[murrayec]

Hi David

Here is a link to some back head photos by popeye;-

Also if you trawl through the O'Dea photos there are some excellent back head photos for the modeller;-

http://catalogue.nli.ie/Collection/vtls000148612

Eoin

 

[Horsetan]

5 hours ago, David Holman said:

.....certainly not the Z, Belpair, extended smokebox types......

That's a pity. That's really the only variant that interests me, mixing ancient with modern.....

[jhb171achill]

The grey first appeared according to some reports in 1918, but others suggest 1925. Prior to that it was shiny black, very nicely lined in red, or earlier still in red and white. 

In GSR days, all grey without exception. In CIE days, everything was grey until about 1957-ish. In the very last few years of steam, very few locomotives were repainted at all, thus many ended their days in a coating of oil, rust, soot and filth. Of the few engines that WERE repainted, some were repainted black. One Bandon Tank got it, No. 90 seems to have been black only for its last eighteen months in traffic, for example.

Bob Clements passed a list on to me at one stage of what engines became black. However I have been unable to locate it; I have obviously misfiled it at some stage.

From recollection, he either implied - or stated as fact - that no J15 was ever painted black. Several photos of J15s during the 1958-62 period appear to show them in black - but dirt on grey, and the limitations of photographic film back then, plus frequent poor light, can easily give this impression.

The old GSWR lines black would look amazing!

No. 171 is one J15 (no, Leslie, not the blue one!) that was known to work the “Burma Road” in the late 1910s / early 20s.

[David Holman]

Thanks chaps. Much appreciated.

 Seems I am either building something from the early 20th century, in black, clean and maybe lined, or something else old and dirty in the 50s.

 The former could run alongside my WLW 0-6-0, Shannon. The latter with my 1950s SLNCR and MGW stock. The list in the 101 book shows the earliest with 4'4 boilers were 152 (1901, survived in this form to 1959); 173 (1902-1933); 124 (1901 to Z in 1938); 126 (1901 to Z in 1938); 122 (1901 to Z in 1942); 137 (1902 to Z in 1931).

 Hence seems like 152 is the only loco that could have run alongside Shannon in its WLW livery and also survived in 4'4 form to the 50s. IF it retained the sloping smokebox, AND ran to Sligo occasionally, it would be almost perfect! However, clean black (no lining) v dirty grey black might be a problem, methinks...

 

[jhb171achill]

The pre-1915 black would have to be lined if authentic......! 

(Runs and hides!)

I must look up my notes and see when they changed from red and white to red only lining....

Cast number plates were always black-background with the various pre-1895 green liveries. They seem to have been red background in lines black days. Once grey came in - ALL grey! Any CIE engines which survived to get black paint after 1957 had painted numbers, no plates.

One, or possibly two of the CBPR 2.4.2Ts which went to the C & L ended up - once there - with red-backed numberplates, as did 801 and 802 after about 1953 anyway. 

J15s corresponded to the above, of course.

Incidentally, many models of grey locos have bought numberplates on them with shiny numerals and black backgrounds. If accuracy is wanted, they would be grey background in all cases. Raised numerals painted light yellow. These numberplates weren't brass, they were gunmetal or cast iron or something, usually. So they were painted.

[murrayec]

Hi David

I have a copy of the IRRS booklet 'Steaming through a century 1866-1966' 'The 101 Class Locomotive of the G.S.&W.R.' published in 1966 edited by PJ Flanagan, Ph.D.

Food for thought;-

On page 16 in the section 'An Engineman's Tribute' by Driver Jack O'Neill, Waterford- he says;- ....... ''But no engine in Waterford was as well known or universally loved as 111 - known locally as 'The Sergeant' or sometimes as 'Nelson'. I wont explain the nick-names as the first is obvious and the second vulgar!''......

Eoin

[Mayner]

There was  a paper on The Athenry & Tuam Railway in one of the IRRS Journals in the late 70s-80s and included details of the locos (mainly J15) allocated to Tuam for working goods trains to Limerick & Sligo in GSR & CIE days. Maybe Leslie may have a copy?

The WLWR Line seemed to be operated as a 'penetrating line" into MGWR territory even into CIE days, with ex-GSWR (& surviving  WLWR) steam power operating both passenger and goods trains

Limerick responsible for supplying motive power with Tuam as a sub-shed or division point for steam hauled goods workings, locos working the WLWR line used the Midland shed at Sligo. 

[leslie10646]

Mayner said: There was  a paper on The Athenry & Tuam Railway in one of the IRRS Journals in the late 70s-80s and included details of the locos (mainly J15) allocated to Tuam for working goods trains to Limerick & Sligo in GSR & CIE days. Maybe Leslie may have a copy?

Your every wish, John. Quick look at my index, then to the bound set in the study - I'm in the dining room on the laptop surrounded by various leftover jobs from Warley.

Volume 17, February 1989: A 16 page article by the late John O'Meara: tells us that locomotives 101, 106, 109, 119, 125, 161, 163, 188, 190, 191 and 229 were in use from Tuam - all J15s, or "101"s I believe - I haven't checked absolutely. You'll have to reference the table in Steaming in Three Centuries to see if any of those survived with 4ft4in boilers.

Edited November 28, 2018 by leslie10646

[jhb171achill]

The The grey first appeared according to some reports in 1918, but others suggest 1925. Prior to that it was shiny black, very nicely lined in red, or earlier still in red and white. 

In GSR days, all grey without exception. In CIE days, everything was grey until about 1957-ish. In the very last few years of steam, very few locomotives were repainted at all, thus many ended their days in a coating of oil, rust, soot and filth. Of the few engines that WERE repainted, some were repainted black. One Bandon Tank got it, No. 90 seems to have been black only for its last eighteen months in traffic, for example.

Bob Clements passed a list on to me at one stage of what engines became black. However I have been unable to locate it; I have obviously misfiled it at some stage.

From recollection, he either implied - or stated as fact - that no J15 was ever painted black. Several photos of J15s during the 1958-62 period appear to show them in black - but dirt on grey, and the limitations of photographic film back then, plus frequent poor light, can easily give this impression.

The old GSWR lines black would look amazing!

No. 171 is one J15 (no, Leslie, not the blue one!) that was known to work the “Burma Road” in the late 1910s / early 20s.

[jhb171achill]

The late Billy Lohan of Tuam, who I interviewed in detail many years ago, told me that in his time at Tuam shed, the allocation was always 6 or 7 J15s. He recalled being told, when he joined the GSWR as a cleaner in 1919 that he had to “polish the locomotive till the lining shone”. 

It is likely that many engines of the class served this route over the years - the above plus 171 (which, of course, would stick in my own mind) and others.

When I get home I’ll look for the list.

[Mayner]

Good work Leslie> Used the article &  photo in Irish Railways in Colour a Second Glance when I picked 191 for my second J15 in 1995! 

Seems to leave David with a choice of Tuam J15s that ran with 4'4" saturated boilers under GSWR-GSR-CIE ownership.

The sloping smokeboxes on saturated locos seem to have been replaced in the late 1930s. There is a photo of a saturated J15 with a conventional smokebox at Tullow in June 1939 (Great Southern Railways an Irish Railway Pictorial), but double doors appear to be the standard for other photos from the 1930s

109-4'4"-1912

190-4'4"-1918

191-4'4"-1914

229-4'4"-1903 as built

229 was one of the last batch of J15s built, with a number of detail differences from the majority of the class, mainly raised sandboxes leading axle, cab front profile trimmed back with splashers exposed, direct rather than linkage reversing lever. There is an excellent Herbert Casserley photo of Coey J15 No 200 at Bray on p16 of Irish Railways in the Heyday of Steam (Bradford Barton).

There is a 1958 photo of her near Limerick on an over load goods from Sligo coupled to a large tender in a "Decade of Steam" Published by RPSI 197? very rate

Edited November 28, 2018 by Mayner

[David Holman]

Fantastic stuff!

Many thanks, everyone. Ideas are forming now, of which more later.

[David Holman]

Going back to Leslie's book, it appears that 229 may fit the bill - just! A Coey loco, built in 1903, it potentially fits the parameters of early lined black, 4'4 boiler etc. The kit contains the bits for the Coey cab etc, so fingers crossed.

 Have decided on the early livery, because, with Arigna's fiddle yard already full, I'm looking at backdating the project eventually. Now that I have Richard Chown's Shannon, something in the very early 20th century fits the bill. The GSWR took over the WLW in 1901, so with the SLNCR also working into Sligo, there is room for variety. Yes, I know other companies didn't work along the SLN line itself, but my Arigna branch was imagineered to be a joint line with the MGW and there are plans afoot to play around with itfurther still. So watch out for another J15 thread shortly!