Bachmann Irish Train Set

[jhb171achill]

10 hours ago, Ironroad said:

 

I'm aware of your expertise on liveries, so may I ask if any of this class was ever painted green (per the Bachmann/MM version). I believe one may have been painted a gloss black and lined as per Bachmann /MM but is the plain matt black version produced by Bachmann/MM correct or was it in reality grey that  had weathered to a dirty black. The model certainly looks the part and in my vague memory of Irish steam locos they appeared to be black. 

Many thanks for that, Ironroad, much appreciated.

Regarding liveries, they were indeed painted that way. These engines were among what were classed as express passenger or suburban engines; they hauled main line passenger and goods. A now-deceased driver I knew told of having one with an extremely heavy cattle train out of Ballinasloe one time. He was pleased to have it, as apparently this service would normally have an 0.6.0 of some sort, doubtless the famous midland "cattle engine"!

Anyway, obviously they were plain grey from the outset/ The very first was finished in Broadstone and fully painted in the then current Midland livery, lined black. But this was for photographs (anyone got a copy?) and before it was ever even steamed, it was repainted plain grey. So they all started grey.

From 1945 onwards, they repainted these engines in the lined green you have, and very attractive it must have looked, but only as they went in for a major overhaul. So it is likely that at least one or two started the 1950s still in grey. It is probable that all became green by, let us say, maybe 1952-ish. Unfortunately, apart from the 800 class, many green engines got so extremely filthy as the 1950s wore on, that they could have been painted lime green and tartan for all anyone could tell. One only, uniquely in the entire CIE steam fleet (I think it was 388, but I'd have to look it up) received a very attractive black lined in red only, and with a light green cabside number instead of the usual light yellow, and of course the normal light green "flying snail" on the tender. It was painted thus specifically for the Cork Rosslare "Express".

This was short-lived, as this service was dieselised not long after. I don't know where this loco went after that, but it's reasonable to assume it wasn't repainted again.

By 1956/7 few locomotives were being fully repainted. But in these final years, many that were became black. I am unaware of any "Woolwiches" were ever treated thus, so staying green in final steam days is playing safe. Within CIE loco classes, most ended their days with all remaining examples grey.

I have two of these, both green. I intend to lightly weather one and (vandalistic that it will seem) heavily weather the other one within an inch of its life, to replicate a colour pic I saw of one some years ago.

Livery-wise, the 400 class were also painted green, though at least two of these ended their days either in black or very heavily work-stained grey.

Steam engines were dirty things. There's a photo in one of the books of a 400 at Inchicore. The tender is green, but so filthy you can't see the lining; I wonder was it an exception without any? But the engine has just got to be black. Things got mixed up. Tenders were routinely swopped. Maybe the engine IS green... but it LOOKS black. Think of the number of blue GNR engines on which the domes look black, maybe the boiler too; Ernie's photo of an S class at Adelaide posted the other day shows this. And look at pics of Donegal tanks - even some Donegal experts today will insist that they actually had black domes - they didn't. They just never cleaned the domes and boilers, but they did the tanks and cabsides... I saw this in India too in the 1970s.

I digress; some here will be reaching for their smelling salts. But I hope that has answered your question. In self-isolation, one has to pass one's time as a tea-guzzling keyboard warrior of an evening.........................

5 hours ago, Midland Man said:

Is 186s tender not its originals and what engine is it from.

You're quite right - it's not its original tender.

Most of them got new tenders as long ago as the 1915-20 period. For some years, many at Whitehead insisted that it was off a 400-class but it isn't one of those either. I wouldn't be surprised, though, if some 400 ended up with a tender of that type at some stage, and maybe it was last seen with a 400, but it's not one of that type.

Inchicore tried to standardise on tenders and various tenders designs were intended for more than one class of loco. Thus, it is now impossible to tell what locomotive class or number this tender was originally paired with.

The same, of course, is true, of the RPSI's ex-GNR engines.

Edited March 20, 2020 by jhb171achill

[Midland Man]

Why was 184s tender kept its original tender and was never rebuilt.

[jhb171achill]

Just now, Midland Man said:

Why was 184s tender kept its original tender and was never rebuilt.

Not all were rebuilt.  Many J15s ended their days almost in original condition.

There was never a single programme to do the whole lot in sequence. There wasn't the money - ever - to do 111 locomotives all the same. Thus, they tended to rebuild a few at a time, or one-offs. In jhbSenior's time in Inchicore, various experiments would occasionally be carried out on a locomotive in for repair, to see if performance or fuel efficiency could be enhanced.

Therefore, like most large and / or long-lived loco classes, by the time the last few were withdrawn, hardly two were identical in every single respect. 184 wasn't the only one that lasted until the end of steam in essentially original (or early) condition, whereas 186 had been very substantially rebuilt. New wheels, new cab, new smokebox(es?), new firebox(es?), numerous tenders..... Trigger's Brush!

[Mike 84C]

Here's some pictures of my K1 which was converted from a BR/SR Bachmann model. They have been posted before but my memory fails me as to when      .

[jhb171achill]

Nicely done!  

[Ironroad]

Many thanks JHB for that very comprehensive answer and it delights me to know that the green livery on this model is authentic and that there is a reasonable possibility that the flat black livery may also have existed in the late ‘50’s. You also note that one had a special livery for the Cork Rosslare Service (Green with Red lining) as nicely modeled by Mike 84C (no 378) above.  But I still have it fixed in my head from somewhere that one was painted a gloss black lined in red as modeled by MM and so I went off on a Google search and came full circle by finding that the K class locos have been the subject of discussion at least twice previously on this website in 2012 and again in 2017.  In a posting in 2012 you noted that no.384 was painted black with red lining. So would it be fair to say there were potentially 5 different liveries in the 1950s albeit not at any one time with two being unique to individual locos:-   grey, two 2 variants of green, lined black and plain black.  

I’m conscious that we are going off on a tangent on the subject matter of this thread and this seems to have happened in 2017 when Garfield intervened.

Thread created in 2017

MGWR/GSR K1/K1a class (Woolwich Moguls)

Quote from Garfield July 7 2017

Hi folks,

 I've split this conversation from the thread in the 'for sale' section. Can I respectfully remind you all not to derail (pun intended) such threads with tangential discussion. Thanks!

Perhaps this would be appropriate to do again but also consolidating these threads. There is also a thread from 2012 covering the 1955 beet train crash in Cahir involving no 375 of this loco class.

Thread created in 2012

GSR & CIE locomotive list for grey, green or black livery

What follows was written by JHB171achill December 8 2012

Having managed to find old notes in the chaotic parallel world which to outsiders is my "study", here are the details I had promised of loco liveries. The bulk of this material originated from the late Drew Donaldson and Bob Clements, both probably the greatest ever authorities on GSR / CIE steam locomotives.

 In GSR days, all locomotives were battleship grey as currently seen on RPSI's J15 186. This was inherited from the GSWR's post-1918 livery. No lining was applied, and cab interiors, frame interiors, every single detail bar the red buffer beams, were grey. The GSR never painted anything, broad or narrow gauge, black. Given an exception to every rule, of course, the GSR had just three: the 800 class, painted a mid-green with bluish tint, and yellow (not white) and black lining. Name and number plates on the 800 class had raised polished numbers and lettering, and blue backgrounds. All other (grey) locos had the numberplates just painted over, or sometimes the raised edges and numbers polished to bare metal, and occasionally painted a light creamy yellow colour, particularly after CIE took over.

 In CIE days, a small number of locos were painted lined green, as on 800 in Cultra Museum (though ignore the "G S" on its tender - should be a "flying snail" for that livery). The locomotives painted green were as follows:

1. All surviving 4.6.0s inc. 400 class, 800 class, etc. 

2. All repainted "Woolwich" 2.6.0s. One, No. 384, received a lined black livery, with red lining, eau-de-nil "snail" and cream painted cabside number, as depicted on the excellent Murphy Models version, for a short time in then late '50s. This loco was used on the Cork - Rosslare (via Mallow) Boat Train.

3. Most Dublin Suburban tank engines.

4. B4 class No. 467, D4 No. 336 (for a short period, then back to grey), D12 No. 305 and D14 No. 61 (which latter must have made a fine sight!). GSWR J30 (preserved at Downpatrick) was repainted in the late 1950s in its final years of traffic in a shade which if not actual black was as good as black. It had a large painted pale yellow number at that stage.

 5. One ex-GSWR J15 (193), and one ex-MGWR J18 (593), which were repainted in Cork shortly before the end of steam had the all over grey but with black smoke boxes. One "Bandon Tank" (464) also based there was repainted at the same time in what appears to have been a much darker shade of grey, with black smoke box.

6. In the very final years of steam (late 50s to early 60s), some of the very few locomotives which saw a paintbrush by then were turned out in unlined black. They were few in number and I have the details somewhere, but not to hand. When I find the info I'll post it here in the hope that it is of assistance.

 7. All locomotives receiving green livery except the 800 class had painted numerals and "snails" - in both cases, the standard pale green "eau-de-nil" colour was used, as opposed to the light yellow used to paint numerals on grey / black locomotives. "Snails" were n ever light yellow though - light green on tenders of grey / black engines. No tender engines (including, not surprisingly, all narrow gauge engines), ever had "snails".

8. No narrow gauge engines were ever green or black. (A Cavan & Leitrim 4.4.0 would have looked amazing in green!! The closest to this was in the form of C & L No. 1 which remained in C & L green until the mid 1930s, thus one of the very last locos in pre-grouping livery. C & L livery was green, lined red and white).

 9. Details: the "eau-de-nil" snails were lined in gold, and green locos had buffer beams (always red) lined with black.

 10. The 800 class differed from other green locos in retaining their numberplates. One of the trio (or possibly two, but not 800 itself) had a red-painted background to the name and numberplates, as currently on the RPSI's 461. For a very short time over the winter of 1952/3, 802 carried a lighter shade of green, possibly as a short-term experiment, as the lighter green applied to carriages, some railcars and diesel locomotives appeared a short time later.

 I hope this is of interest.

It is indeed

[jhb171achill]

..

Edited March 22, 2020 by jhb171achill

[jhb171achill]

1 hour ago, Ironroad said:

Many thanks JHB for that very comprehensive answer and it delights me to know that the green livery on this model is authentic and that there is a reasonable possibility that the flat black livery may also have existed in the late ‘50’s. You also note that one had a special livery for the Cork Rosslare Service (Green with Red lining) as nicely modeled by Mike 84C (no 378) above.  But I still have it fixed in my head from somewhere that one was painted a gloss black lined in red as modeled by MM and so I went off on a Google search and came full circle by finding that the K class locos have been the subject of discussion at least twice previously on this website in 2012 and again in 2017.  In a posting in 2012 you noted that no.384 was painted black with red lining. So would it be fair to say there were potentially 5 different liveries in the 1950s albeit not at any one time with two being unique to individual locos:-   grey, two 2 variants of green, lined black and plain black.  

 

2. All repainted "Woolwich" 2.6.0s. One, No. 384, received a lined black livery, with red lining, eau-de-nil "snail" and cream painted cabside number, as depicted on the excellent Murphy Models version, for a short time in then late '50s. This loco was used on the Cork - Rosslare (via Mallow) Boat Train.

 

The Rosslare livery was lined black, yes, not red-lined green as I wrote above - this oul cabin fever is getting to me.......  lined black, as on the Murphy model, yes. I've corrected the bit above.

So, plain grey or lined green for all the others, with a slight possibility (though I can't be certain) of a plain black one - maybe - towards the very end.

Edited March 20, 2020 by jhb171achill

[huca]

On 3/19/2020 at 12:30 AM, jhb171achill said:

I've a couple of those locos. I've never run them so I don't even know what state they're in. However, my question: are they easy to convert to DCC?

Just finished my first DCC conversion on this model. Used an Iphone speaker and mounted the kit in the tender. Biggest problem is the clearance on the linkage between the Loco and tender. Interesting experience as I have not yet built a layout.