Supertrain timetable

[hexagon789]

I know the Mk2d appeared from December 1972 onwards, but could someone confirm when the new timetable was launched?

The one with more services than before and a pattern of a pair of trains from Dublin to provincial towns in the evening and up in the morning.

Was it April 1973?

 

Thanks, Ben.

[jhb171achill]

1 hour ago, hexagon789 said:

I know the Mk2d appeared from December 1972 onwards, but could someone confirm when the new timetable was launched?

The one with more services than before and a pattern of a pair of trains from Dublin to provincial towns in the evening and up in the morning.

Was it April 1973?

 

Thanks, Ben.

I think it was, Ben. I got a public one then as I was off on a summer holiday's worth of rail runabout travel. I will try to find it, although I have no idea where to start in this room!!!

The idea was to shorten the trains but increase the service.

[hexagon789]

45 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

I think it was, Ben. I got a public one then as I was off on a summer holiday's worth of rail runabout travel. I will try to find it, although I have no idea where to start in this room!!!

The idea was to shorten the trains but increase the service.

Thanks jhb,

I knew it must be about then, but the trouble is too often timetables appear to be published with "until further notice", so it's not easy to tell if there is an interim timetable between different issues sometimes.

Thanks for your comment, I think that's the one then.

 

Regards, Ben

49 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

The idea was to shorten the trains but increase the service.

That reminds me of Virgin Train's infamous Operation Princess...

[BSGSV]

Started on 2nd April 1973. The Galway and Westport trains also went over to Athlone - Portarlington to Heuston. Sligo, Rosslare and Dun Laoghaire Pier trains went to Connolly, along with the Galway Mails, except the Galway Night Mail started at Westland Row. Boat trains from Rosslare started running to Limerick rather than Cork. Lots of changes, with associated infrastructure changes beforehand. A full description is given in IRRS Journal No. 61 of June 1973. If memory serves, the timetable only lasted the one year?

The AC sets were all seven-piece, EGV, Super-Standard or Compo, Restaurant, four Standards. Eight sets in service, four on the Cork road (with Super-Standards), one each Tralee, Limerick, Waterford, Galway (with Compo).

The Push-Pulls had started on the Dublin Suburban in February too.

Edited February 19, 2020 by BSGSV

[Mayner]

The new timetable was adversely affected as a result of a work to rule at Inchacore Works which reduced locomotive availability and the 1st Oil Crisis. The timetable appears to have been based on single 1325 Hp 001 Class hauling the majority of Intercity trains with the 1650hp uprated locos working the Dublin-Tralee trains.

The majority of additional services were cancelled, trains decelerated in the following timetable, with most of the radial routes loosing one  return working daily, many of the additional services were not reinstated until the late 1990s.

One effect of the cutbacks was longer heavier trains on the main routes, CIE introduced double heading with pairs of small Bo-Bos to speed up running from 75/76 on-wards before the introduction of the 071 Class.

CIE shifted to Soviet diesel imported by Tedcastles in the mid 70s, possibly an attempt to secure supply and price. This followed Ireland opening diplomatic relations with the Soviet Union in 1973, not sure if the Soviets received payment in kind with Irish meat and dairy products, like Eammon Kellys story of the EEC selling the "Butter Mountain" to the Russians "to oil the axles of their carts"

The Midland Railway in the UK operated on the light frequent high standard of comfort model up to its amalgamation into the LMS, the Midland was one of the first British railways to implement a centralised traffic train control system and was surrounded by competitors so it had to provide a superior service to stay in business, the NCC seems to have operated on a similar principal with a service of fast comfortable trains it lost money but the LMS had deep pockets to support its Irish subsidary.

[hexagon789]

6 hours ago, BSGSV said:

Started on 2nd April 1973. The Galway and Westport trains also went over to Athlone - Portarlington to Heuston. Sligo, Rosslare and Dun Laoghaire Pier trains went to Connolly, along with the Galway Mails, except the Galway Night Mail started at Westland Row. Boat trains from Rosslare started running to Limerick rather than Cork. Lots of changes, with associated infrastructure changes beforehand. A full description is given in IRRS Journal No. 61 of June 1973. If memory serves, the timetable only lasted the one year?

The AC sets were all seven-piece, EGV, Super-Standard or Compo, Restaurant, four Standards. Eight sets in service, four on the Cork road (with Super-Standards), one each Tralee, Limerick, Waterford, Galway (with Compo).

The Push-Pulls had started on the Dublin Suburban in February too.

 

Thanks for the details, presumably with a requirement for eight sets with four Standards each, that explains the conversion of 5 composites to Standards? As with only 36 built, you'd have no spares.

Though that would also leave no spare Composites with a requirement for 4.

 

4 hours ago, Mayner said:

The new timetable was adversely affected as a result of a work to rule at Inchacore Works which reduced locomotive availability and the 1st Oil Crisis. The timetable appears to have been based on single 1325 Hp 001 Class hauling the majority of Intercity trains with the 1650hp uprated locos working the Dublin-Tralee trains.

The majority of additional services were cancelled, trains decelerated in the following timetable, with most of the radial routes loosing one  return working daily, many of the additional services were not reinstated until the late 1990s.

One effect of the cutbacks was longer heavier trains on the main routes, CIE introduced double heading with pairs of small Bo-Bos to speed up running from 75/76 on-wards before the introduction of the 071 Class.

I've seen a reference to pairs of 121s working some services in this period, but photos from pre-071 days seem to show A Class or Double Baby GMs from the mid-1970s or A Class or Single Baby GMs in the earlier years.

 

[hexagon789]

Managed to obtain a copy of April 2nd 1973 until further notice. Thanks for the comments again guys

 

[jhb171achill]

7 hours ago, hexagon789 said:

 

Thanks for the details, presumably with a requirement for eight sets with four Standards each, that explains the conversion of 5 composites to Standards? As with only 36 built, you'd have no spares.

Though that would also leave no spare Composites with a requirement for 4.

 

I've seen a reference to pairs of 121s working some services in this period, but photos from pre-071 days seem to show A Class or Double Baby GMs from the mid-1970s or A Class or Single Baby GMs in the earlier years.

 

The first time I saw a 121 “pair” was in 1972 about to leave Heuston on an afternoon Cork departure.

[BSGSV]

18 hours ago, hexagon789 said:

Thanks for the details, presumably with a requirement for eight sets with four Standards each, that explains the conversion of 5 composites to Standards? As with only 36 built, you'd have no spares.

Though that would also leave no spare Composites with a requirement for 4.

Eight sets with four standards requires 32 standards, and there were 36. I believe the compo to standard conversions were done with a view to making up 10 sets, each formed of an EGV, First or Compo, Restaurant, 3 Standards, with nine in service and one to switch as a maintenance set, but I'm not clear whether that approach was implemented. I thought, as Mayner says, that subsequent timetables led to reduced numbers of trains, prompting longer set formations, and surpluses of such as Restaurant cars.

In the 1973 timetable, the eight sets would have two unused Firsts to cover for a missing Compo.

If one was looking for a small train formation, before the big changes of April 1973, the 18:10 Heuston-Tralee went to an AC set from 29th January, comprising EGV, Compo, Restaurant, 2 Standards. I don't think I'd like to be trying to get on the train on Fridays... 

[hexagon789]

14 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

The first time I saw a 121 “pair” was in 1972 about to leave Heuston on an afternoon Cork departure.

The only double 121 I've seen on AC stock pre-071, was a photo with such on a Waterford-Hueston working in 1975, so to me it seems fairly rare.

 

3 hours ago, BSGSV said:

Eight sets with four standards requires 32 standards, and there were 36.

Ach, I can't count! ;)

So 4 spare.

3 hours ago, BSGSV said:

I believe the compo to standard conversions were done with a view to making up 10 sets, each formed of an EGV, First or Compo, Restaurant, 3 Standards, with nine in service and one to switch as a maintenance set, but I'm not clear whether that approach was implemented. I thought, as Mayner says, that subsequent timetables led to reduced numbers of trains, prompting longer set formations, and surpluses of such as Restaurant cars.

In the 1973 timetable, the eight sets would have two unused Firsts to cover for a missing Compo.

If one was looking for a small train formation, before the big changes of April 1973, the 18:10 Heuston-Tralee went to an AC set from 29th January, comprising EGV, Compo, Restaurant, 2 Standards. I don't think I'd like to be trying to get on the train on Fridays... 

Thanks BSGSV, I think I'm more looking to what the original intention for the sets with having nine composites was.

[jhb171achill]

3 hours ago, hexagon789 said:

The only double 121 I've seen on AC stock pre-071, was a photo with such on a Waterford-Hueston working in 1975, so to me it seems fairly rare.

It was Indeed, that’s how I remember it. It was a midday or early afternoon stopping train to Cork, leaving what is now platform 5.

The leading one anyway, but I think both, was newly painted in “supertrain”, the first time I had seen this livery in a 121.

We we’re leaving my cousin onto the train to go to Mountrath..... happy days....

[jhb171achill]

CORRECTION:   I'm just re-reading my original comment on a pair of 121s.... I said it was 1972 - that's a typo - it was 1973!

[hexagon789]

My copy finally arrived today, and after a look through I can quite appreciate the comment in one issue of the JOurnal describing it as 'the spectacular timetable'.

Two questions if I may:

Firstly is there a way to tell which services are AC stock? On the catering pages, there are trains on Weekdays listed as "In-Seat catering for Super-Standard passengers," would I be right to assume these are the Mk II workings? (5 each-way Dublin/Cork and one each way Dublin/Limerick, Galway, Waterford and Tralee.)

Secondly, linespeed was 70 on the Cork road then wasn't it? If so, there are some quite impressive 60mph+ averages on many services.

 

Cheers.

[jhb171achill]

2 hours ago, hexagon789 said:

My copy finally arrived today, and after a look through I can quite appreciate the comment in one issue of the JOurnal describing it as 'the spectacular timetable'.

Two questions if I may:

Firstly is there a way to tell which services are AC stock? On the catering pages, there are trains on Weekdays listed as "In-Seat catering for Super-Standard passengers," would I be right to assume these are the Mk II workings? (5 each-way Dublin/Cork and one each way Dublin/Limerick, Galway, Waterford and Tralee.)

Secondly, linespeed was 70 on the Cork road then wasn't it? If so, there are some quite impressive 60mph+ averages on many services.

I believe line speed was indeed 70 on the Cork and Belfast lines (though not necessarily the entire routes).

I was doing a “rail runabout” that summer, and while I can’t confirm exactly what carriages were on what services, I can confirm that not everything was Mk 2.

The mid-morning Cork was an 11, 12 or 13 coach rake of mixed laminates of several types, Cravens and Park Royals. The “Enterprise” was laminates and Park Royals, as CIE didn’t want to risk the better Cravens and Mk2s.

(By the way, Mk. 2s were more often than not known as “a/c stock”....)

Rosslare-Limerick-Claremorris was PRs & various laminates, as were Cork & Dublin suburbans, and Tralee.

At least one afternoon train to Cork was old stock too. It was around then that I travelled in what must have been one of the very last Bredins. I never saw one in traffic again.

I travelled in Mk 2 stock to Waterford, Cork and Galway. 

Sligo was, I THINK, a mixture. I certainly travelled on two trains on this line which were not Mk 2, but (a) one was the up evening mail which wasn’t advertised and (b) I can’t state what stock was on ALL trains on the Sligo line.

I travelled on one up Westport and took a pic of another - Cravens & laminates. I remember this in particular, as the ticket checker got into a row with a gentleman of somewhat rural disposition, who insisted on smoking in the (24xx type) dining car.

He told him in words unfamiliar to the easily-offended in today’s PC and over-sensitive world, what he would do with him and where he might put his cigarette if he didn’t stop!

Our rural friend eventually settled down and went to sleep, dreaming peacefully perhaps after counting his own favourite sheep.....

I think he had had a few sips of falling-down lotion.....

And yes, the in-seat stuff was almost certainly the Mk 2s. I’m not sure if there were too many non-a/c 1st class carriages in use.

 

[hexagon789]

2 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

I believe line speed was indeed 70 on the Cork and Belfast lines (though not necessarily the entire routes).

That was my understanding too, one day I will find out when it went to 75 on the Cork Road prior to 90mph running being introduced.

 

2 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

I was doing a “rail runabout” that summer, and while I can’t confirm exactly what carriages were on what services, I can confirm that not everything was Mk 2.

The mid-morning Cork was an 11, 12 or 13 coach rake of mixed laminates of several types, Cravens and Park Royals. The “Enterprise” was laminates and Park Royals, as CIE didn’t want to risk the better Cravens and Mk2s.

(By the way, Mk. 2s were more often than not known as “a/c stock”....)

Rosslare-Limerick-Claremorris was PRs & various laminates, as were Cork & Dublin suburbans, and Tralee.

At least one afternoon train to Cork was old stock too. It was around then that I travelled in what must have been one of the very last Bredins. I never saw one in traffic again.

I travelled in Mk 2 stock to Waterford, Cork and Galway. 

Sligo was, I THINK, a mixture. I certainly travelled on two trains on this line which were not Mk 2, but (a) one was the up evening mail which wasn’t advertised and (b) I can’t state what stock was on ALL trains on the Sligo line.

I travelled on one up Westport and took a pic of another - Cravens & laminates.

From the journals Westport was conventional stock until 1985, Sligo mid-1987 and Rosslare November 1987.

2 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

He told him in words unfamiliar to the easily-offended in today’s PC and over-sensitive world, what he would do with him and where he might put his cigarette if he didn’t stop!

I've seen a conductor use similar, though not quite as strong, language to get someone to remove their feet from seats

 

2 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

And yes, the in-seat stuff was almost certainly the Mk 2s. I’m not sure if there were too many non-a/c 1st class carriages in use.

Seemed the likeliest explanation to me.

Weren't some Cravens "upgraded" to Super-Standards for a time?

While in later timetables it certainly decreases in provision (even just going forwards to 1975), in this particular timetable very nearly all mainline services seem to have Super-Standard class accommodation.

[jhb171achill]

Good stuff, hexagon. Yes, several Cravens were indeed upgraded to 1st for a short time. All they did was put antimacassars on the seats and paint a "1" on the doors!

[Noel]

1 hour ago, jhb171achill said:

Good stuff, hexagon. Yes, several Cravens were indeed upgraded to 1st for a short time. All they did was put antimacassars on the seats and paint a "1" on the doors!

And kept them nice and quiet inside no doubt (ie no noisy kids running around nor hen destination pax)

[jhb171achill]

I heard of at least one occasion last year when a group of "hens" going to Killarney were extremely abusive to other passengers and threatened to assault one.....

[hexagon789]

Could someone tell me what the previous timetable issue to the 2nd April 1973 was? 

Would it be the June 1972 issue or was there one in-between?

Thanks