Mystery Guards Van in Donegal

[jhb171achill]

Senior took this pic of a mixed train coming into Stranorlar from Glenties in 1945.

Now what on earth is that van behind the railcar trailer coach? Design-wise, it’s like those on the Clogher Valley or the C & L, pre-rebuild.  

No C & L van ever went Donegal, for certain, and I am unaware of any CVR ones having gone there either.

I have never seen a picture of anything like this on the CDR.

Does anyone know what it is?

 

[Irishswissernie]

Desmond Coakham photographed a CVR passenger brake van at Strabane (Narrow Gauge Rolling Stock Page 64 top photo) in 1947, which he says did not appear in any writings on either line. numbered 14. Looks very similar.

 

Ernie

[David Holman]

Looks very much like the CVR ones to me. However, while I've built four of them, I'm more than capable of missing what is entirely obvious.

[jhb171achill]

I have spent the afternoon searching among a considerable amount of information to see if i can come up with some reason why this van is in Donegal, to no avail. Coakham himself refers to it as a "mystery"; I concur!

It has retained its very badly faded "maroon" paint and CVR number and markings.

One aspect of liveries often not well understood is the different ways that paints have been made up over the years. Modern maroon paint, when faded, will look pinkish, or even gain a yellowy tint. In the past, it tended to assume a more browny hue when badly worn, given rise to stories about vehicles in brown liveries, rather than a deep maroon. The reason is different compounds in paint over the years, different chemical make-ups, and the uses of linseed oil, lead and other compounds being the norm then, but not today.

You could paint two vehicles the exact same colour - which would be the "official" livery. But if you used different paints, it is possible that when you saw them lying in a scrap line years later, out of use for, say, five years, and not having last been painted for ten, they would have faded differently. This has sometimes led to incorrect assumptions that railway companies just went to local shops to get a generic paint that looked about right; not the case.

The CVR, like many smaller railways, never had a lot in the bank, so regular repaints of locomotives, rolling stick and stations was on a maintenance-need basis only as often as not. Look at just about any colour pictures of the CDR in the 1950s!

The CVR painted all carriages and the vans above in a deep maroon. The only place the original paint can now be seen is the background to the CVR crest on display in "Headhunters" in Enniskillen. Senior got a small pot of paint during a visit to Aughnacloy in the late 1930s for that. It is not dissimilar to LMS coach maroon in England; maybe the CVR got it from the NCC in Belfast? However, several eye-witnesses have said that in reality, some vehicles there were a dirty, dull, nondescript browny-red. This was in fact the rich maroon very heavily worn and weatherbeaten. Vans, in particular, never saw a brush with water, let alone one with paint.

Thus, this van as shown would have appeared as a very worn, dull, brake-dust-tinted dull reddish-brown. For the modeller, patches or worn maroon would have been visible round the door, where it was handled, and so on.....

[jhb171achill]

This is what the CDR bought at the auction following the closure of the Clogher Valley.

Ne’er a brake van to be seen.

It isn’t one of the “small vans” (which became “red wagons”), as they can all be accounted for separately.

The reality is that this van has just been “thrown in”. Being mostly wooden, the scrap value wouldn’t have been much.

[airfixfan]

Have posted on this earlier today. They were numbered 1-6 by the CVR. 5 survived to be bought by the CDR in 1942 but saw little use so were probably not even repainted by the CDR? Suspect they all were gone by or during the cull of CDR rolling stock in 1951.

[jhb171achill]

4 minutes ago, airfixfan said:

Have posted on this earlier today. They were numbered 1-6 by the CVR. 5 survived to be bought by the CDR in 1942 but saw little use so were probably not even repainted by the CDR? Suspect they all were gone by or during the cull of CDR rolling stock in 1951.

I would think so, indeed. The few photos of it clearly show it in by then very workstained CVR livery. If it had survived much longer it would surely have been well-photographed by the time Messrs. Casserley, Boyd, Camwell, Fry and O'Dea were taking most of their pictures in the 1950s.

[irishrail201]

Looks very CVR, GSR/CIE bought some ex CVR wagons and rail at closure I understand. Some wagons went to Ballinamore but were not used. Bord na Mona also got a lot of rail.

 

[jhb171achill]

1 hour ago, irishrail201 said:

Looks very CVR, GSR/CIE bought some ex CVR wagons and rail at closure I understand. Some wagons went to Ballinamore but were not used. Bord na Mona also got a lot of rail.

 

It is indeed CVR, but the odd thing is, it was never listed as having been sold at all, never mind to the CDR; thus it was by default recorded as having been scrapped. At no stage does it appear to exist in any CDR stock lists or records, and it is not included in the above list of sale items from the CVR to the CDR.

The thing has literally disappeared from all records, anywhere, when the CVR closed in 1942. Nowhere after that has it (so far) appeared to exist at all, yet photographic evidence of it operating on the CDR shows it as late as 1947 at least. 

[irishrail201]

10 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

It is indeed CVR, but the odd thing is, it was never listed as having been sold at all, never mind to the CDR; thus it was by default recorded as having been scrapped. At no stage does it appear to exist in any CDR stock lists or records, and it is not included in the above list of sale items from the CVR to the CDR.

The thing has literally disappeared from all records, anywhere, when the CVR closed in 1942. Nowhere after that has it (so far) appeared to exist at all, yet photographic evidence of it operating on the CDR shows it as late as 1947 at least. 

Its funny about railway companies where records say X whereas an image says Y. Its a bit like the T&D carriage that wento to Leitrim it was listed as 22L (ex 5T) this according to Bristol's records was built in 1890. In recent years we recovered bristol carriage plates from outside ballinamore with CIE green around them. It is 99% from 22L as its very unlikely another exT&D carriage came this far north west. The problem is the plate is dated 1891......

Leads me to believe 22L was not 5T at all, probably 9T! This was the only brake dated 1891!

[airfixfan]

The 18 5 ton wagons in the 1942 CVR auction list are the covered wagons sold to the CDR where they became known as the red Van's. Good photos of the CVR brake Van's on pages 35 and 38 in particular in Lost railways of Co Tyrone and Co Fermanagh book from the Casserley collection. 

[jhb171achill]

18 hours ago, irishrail201 said:

Its funny about railway companies where records say X whereas an image says Y. Its a bit like the T&D carriage that wento to Leitrim it was listed as 22L (ex 5T) this according to Bristol's records was built in 1890. In recent years we recovered bristol carriage plates from outside ballinamore with CIE green around them. It is 99% from 22L as its very unlikely another exT&D carriage came this far north west. The problem is the plate is dated 1891......

Leads me to believe 22L was not 5T at all, probably 9T! This was the only brake dated 1891!

That certainly sounds right, Irishrail201.

Even one 400 class 4.6.0 changed identities mid-term, as it was scheduled for scrapping, but the men on the ground knew that it was in better order than another one. details in McMahon & Clements' "Bible" - the "Big Green Book".

1 hour ago, airfixfan said:

The 18 5 ton wagons in the 1942 CVR auction list are the covered wagons sold to the CDR where they became known as the red Van's. Good photos of the CVR brake Van's on pages 35 and 38 in particular in Lost railways of Co Tyrone and Co Fermanagh book from the Casserley collection. 

Yes, indeed - yet no mention of this brake van!

The very latest photographic evidence of it (still in tattered CVR livery) appears to be in 1947. It may be reasonable too assume it wasn't in use much longer. I feel that we would all know well about it after photographers started visiting in the early 1950s......